WWI Digest 516 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: wood finishes by The Shannons 2) Re: Gotha Kits by Geoff Smith 3) Re: Mail-bot Needed by aew (Allan Wright) 4) net behavior by aew (Allan Wright) 5) Re: Wood Finishes by Bill Bacon 6) Re: Fokker D.VIII wings by Geoff Smith 7) RE: St. Louis Jasta by Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) 8) Re: Blue Max Special at Squadron! by Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) 9) Re: Wood Finishes by "Paul Schwartzkopf" 10) Re: The Next Great Debate by thayer@sirius.com (Thayer Syme) 11) PEGASUS BREGUET 14 by Patrick Padovan 12) RE: The Next Great Debate by Robert McAllister 13) Re: Wood Finishes by Bill Bacon 14) WHAT I WANT by Patrick Padovan 15) Re: Wood Finishes by Alberto Rada 16) Re: Wood Finishes by "Paul Schwartzkopf" 17) Re: WHAT I WANT by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 18) Re: Blue Max Special at Squadron! by Carlos Valdes 19) Re: Comment on this list by "Jim Lyzun" 20) Re: Wood Finishes by Bill Bacon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:56:46 -0500 From: The Shannons To: wwi Subject: Re: wood finishes Message-ID: <33661A3E.3BE3@ix.netcom.com> Peter Fedders wrote: > > On simulating wood surfaces. > > I have had excellent results with the following method. First paint the surface > with a yellow or light brown paint and let it dry thoroughly - at least several > days. then dry brush on a darker brown or reddish brown. It sounds harder than it > is - but you will have to practice. > > Of course the wood grain is not to scale - if it was to scale you would not see it! > However, you do create the illusion of wood grain. > > paf -- I don't try to replicate the GRAIN of the wood so much as the variation in TONEs. I use a similar technique to the above, using Humbrol paints. For fir wood and pine, I use the colors #110 Natural Wood, #71 Oak (as a base tone), #121 Pale Stone, #148 Radome Tan, #170 Brown Bess (very lightly), and #187 Brown. These are not all used on one panel, of course, but used in differing shadings and mixtures to difine each different panel. After painting the base-tone and letting it dry, I mask off the 'panel' with a thin strip of tape, then dry brush using an orientation I want for the direction of that panel's 'grain'.I try to make sure I get the dark color into the edges, and will sometimes use the Natural Wood as the base so there is a slight shadow effect demarking the edge of the individual panel. I overcoat the final result in a slightly flattened gloss clear acrylic (shinier than most semi-gloss, though not looking like fine furniture). Different panels will have differing 'orientations', though mostly they will either run lengthwise to the fuselage or vertical, though you will see that sheets of plywood occasionally are sheathed at the bias. I find this sort of treatment also works well for plastic props (heresy, I know) painted to resemble laminated wood. -- This has been Mark and/or Mary Shannon at Shingend@ix.netcom.com History manages to get away with cliches no novelist could. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:56:19 -0400 From: Geoff Smith To: "INTERNET:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Gotha Kits Message-ID: <199704291156_MC2-15A5-D3B@compuserve.com> Jesse wrote: >In the latest Windsock vol. 13, No. 2 there is a blurb in the products >section on page 28 about a Gotha G.V. scheduled for production by a Czech >company named Hippo. The medium being resin and scale of course being in >the preffered 1/48. The mention of this news is literally the last two >Any mention of price or projected release date?!?!?! Was there a phone >number or email address? >Thanks, >--Jesse< Can't remember seeing a reply to this so : 1. "later this year" along with Macchi M.5 & Fok. D.VIIF also 1/48th 2. Hippo Models K. H. Machy 574/372,434 01 Most, Czech Republic. ( as printed in WS) Regards, Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:00:45 -0400 (EDT) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Re: Mail-bot Needed Message-ID: <199704291600.MAA18657@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > Do you or anyone else on the list have a nice mail-bot to gently show the > folks with double-digit IQ the proper way to unsubscribe from this list? > Some folks need it spelled out for them -- many more times than once. I'm not sure what you mean, but the University frowns on me doing any covert actions to inflict revenge. Too bad that..... Best I can do is let them ROT on the list. I've found it's usually easier just to terminate THEIR internet connection. By the time their ISP gets it figured out the list daemon has killed them from the list :-) -Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:09:08 -0400 (EDT) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: postmaster@OnRamp.NET Cc: wwi Subject: net behavior Message-ID: <199704291609.MAA18762@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Dear Postmaster, Please take some time to instruct Stephen R. Miller (pilum40@OnRamp.NET) about proper net etiquette. This person joined my mailing list, and within a 12 hour period send several abusive messages like the one below, many with profanity. Had he waited one day I would have deleted him by hand myself, but I was out of the office for the morning and came back to a mailbox full of his abusive posts. Thanks, Allan Wright, WWI Modeling MAiling List Administrator =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== Forwarded message: > From wwi Mon Apr 28 22:33:29 1997 > Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:33:28 -0400 > Message-Id: <199704290229.VAA07697@mailhost.onramp.net> > Errors-To: aew > Reply-To: wwi > Originator: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu > Sender: wwi > Precedence: bulk > From: pilum40@OnRamp.NET ( Stephen R. Miller) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: please take me off this list...180 messages is too damn much!!! > X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > X-Comment: WWI Modeling Discussion List > > please take me off this list...180 messages is too damn much!!!please take > me off this list...180 messages is too damn much!!!please take me off this > list...180 messages is too damn much!!!please take me off this list...180 > messages is too damn much!!!please take me off this list...180 messages is > too damn much!!!please take me off this list...180 messages is too damn > much!!!please take me off this list...180 messages is too damn > much!!!please take me off this list...180 messages is too damn > much!!!please take me off this list...180 messages is too damn > much!!!please take me off this list...180 messages is too damn > much!!!please take me off this list...180 messages is too damn > much!!!please take me off this list...180 messages is too 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Miller > Government\Economics Instructor > Townview Magnet Center > 1201 E. 8th Street > Room 256 > Dallas Texas 75203 > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:21:49 -0500 From: Bill Bacon To: wwi Subject: Re: Wood Finishes Message-ID: <3366201D.5166@netjava.net> Not to rock the boat but, in damned near any scale that we build, I find that panel lines and wood grain however small are huge. If we hold the model at eye level and at arms length, it is the same as looking at the real thing 72/48/32/28 feet away. Even when these tired eyes were 20/20 I couldn't pick out wood grain at that distance. I classify this along with bulged tires. Damn, if the tires on your car were that bulged, you would be on the way to a source of air or repair. Remember, a/c wheels have to go from 0 mph to the landing speed in almost zero time. Bulged (semi flat tires would be a disaster. Guess somebody figured this was neat and now we have a whole indusry making the damned wheels and judges looking for same. Would be interested in seeing a picture of an operational a/c with bulged tires. Anybody got any? Getting back to wood grain and panel lines, Got any pictures of the full a/c that you can see either on? Hopefully, our models are a miniture depiction of a full size a/c. We go bonkers because a kit component is 1mm smaller that a drawing and then go to great pains creating wood grain. Talk about swallowing a camel and straing on a flea. Just a thought. Cheers, Bill Paul Schwartzkopf wrote: > > I have had success with painting on a base coat, such as Model Master > Wood, or mixing a reddish-brown for mahogany. After the paint is > dry, I use artists' drawing pencils, in a darker color, to add the > graining. I select a color according to the base coat, such as dark > brown on light brown. I never use black--it is too dark. I don't > pay too much attention adding the graining, as you want it to look > "random". I do this right before adding a gloss coat of clear for > decaling to seal in the pencil. Pencils can be purchased at art/craft > stores, and come in a wide variety of colors. Be advised that using > too sharp a point or pressing too hard can gouge into the paint. > > Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:43:36 -0400 From: Geoff Smith To: "INTERNET:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" Subject: Re: Fokker D.VIII wings Message-ID: <199704291242_MC2-15A5-BFAC@compuserve.com> Brian Bushe wrote: >stressed skins on jets (you know what they are don't you?)< Mud mover pulling 6G at 450 kts &50 ft ? Modelling the expression on the pilot's face is going too far I think. I mean think of the research. You would have to know who he was, get a photograph (colour so you get his eyes, hair & skin colour right) and preferably at the moment he was being stressed. No, I think I'll stick at the aircraft but if anyone has a go, let us know. We'll get you certified before the government (any) decides to employ you. Cheers Geoff. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:09:20 -0500 From: Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) To: wwi Subject: RE: St. Louis Jasta Message-ID: <1997Apr29.100403.1155.1513382@uprr-internet.notes.up.com> St. Louis Jasta next meeting is May 23rd in Webster Groves, MO. nb: Lindbergh JN-4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:11:34 -0500 From: Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) To: wwi Subject: Re: Blue Max Special at Squadron! Message-ID: <1997Apr29.100724.1155.1513389@uprr-internet.notes.up.com> Does anyone have a telephone listing for Squadron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:40:13 +0000 From: "Paul Schwartzkopf" To: wwi Subject: Re: Wood Finishes Message-ID: <199704291748.MAA26417@tscrypt1.transcrypt.com> Bill wrote: > Not to rock the boat but, in damned near any scale that we build, I find > that panel lines and wood grain however small are huge. Sorry, I disagree, but I do acknowledge your point. The tip on the pencil I use is rather dull, and goes on more as a shading, rather than distinguishable lines. This is closer to drybrushing. I still feel it looks better to have some contrast as opposed to using one solid color or a decal. My personal preference, not necessarily right or wrong. >I classify this along with bulged tires. Damn, if the tires on your car were that >bulged, you would be on the way to a source of air or repair. I will agree with you 100% on the bulged tires and complaints about parts being 1 mm off. The "artistic presentation" has overwhelmed the hobby--just take a look at the *heavily* accented panel lines on aircraft. And then the aluminum skin on some aircraft is not flat, but try to duplicate that wavy appearence in a contest, and you haven't got a chance! Quite frankly, these are the reasons I don't enter contests much any more (I go for the vendors and to look). I build models to satisfy only my standards, and I would expect others to build to their own standards. Sharing techniques and information is, in my opinion, what counts the most. Whether I use them (or not) is not as important to me as is the actual exchange of ideas. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:42:43 -0700 From: thayer@sirius.com (Thayer Syme) To: wwi Subject: Re: The Next Great Debate Message-ID: Jim Alley, I thought you might like these tidbits to support the true cause. In most cases, though, it isn't worth fighting. You can't save people from themselves. Case in point, look at the selections of models subjects that market demands have put on the hobby shop shelves. WWI to oil burner ratio springs to mind. Thayer "Saying Windows 95 is the same as a Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus Christ and saying you've seen the Second Coming." - -Guy Kawasaki "DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form." --New York Times Windows '95 = Macintosh '87 -- Thayer Syme Free Flight Homepage San Francisco http://www.sirius.com/~thayer/modelhp.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:50:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: PEGASUS BREGUET 14 Message-ID: Greetings. (Who says common courtesy is extinct?) I found a nice surprise waiting in my mailbox when I returned home from work yesterday: the new Pegasus Bregeut 14 kit. I've only looked it over briefly, but it looks very fine, with good surface details, white metal u/c, radiator front, and guns. Decals are for BRE 504 in Salinika, 1918. (Overall beige/pale yellow, white fuselage band trimmed in red w/ a blue Cross of Lorraine.) With a little time and effort, this looks like it will build into a fine little model. Cutting out the fuselage windows from the observer's office will be tricky, though. Adieu, Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan Interlibrary Loan Associate Timberland Regional Library Voice: 360-943-5001 415 Airdustrial Way SW FAX: 360-586-6838 Olympia, WA 98501-5799 e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:51:06 -0600 From: Robert McAllister To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: The Next Great Debate Message-ID: <61A1CFAB40BDCF119B3B080009D624A80C4F2D@STERWENT> Or as my wallpaper on my Windoze machine I am forced to use at work says: (Under a large recycling symbol on a suspiciously familiar looking cloudy sky background) " Windows95 - 100% recycled Macintosh OS" Robert Robertm@sterwent.com Jim Alley, I thought you might like these tidbits to support the true cause. In most cases, though, it isn't worth fighting. You can't save people from themselves. Case in point, look at the selections of models subjects that market demands have put on the hobby shop shelves. WWI to oil burner ratio springs to mind. Thayer "Saying Windows 95 is the same as a Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus Christ and saying you've seen the Second Coming." - -Guy Kawasaki "DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form." --New York Times Windows '95 = Macintosh '87 -- Thayer Syme Free Flight Homepage San Francisco http://www.sirius.com/~thayer/modelhp.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:50:52 -0500 From: Bill Bacon To: wwi Subject: Re: Wood Finishes Message-ID: <3366511C.3CBC@netjava.net> Paul Schwartzkopf wrote: > > Bill wrote: > > Not to rock the boat but, in damned near any scale that we build, I find > > that panel lines and wood grain however small are huge. > > Sorry, I disagree, but I do acknowledge your point. The tip on the > pencil I use is rather dull, and goes on more as a shading, rather than > distinguishable lines. This is closer to drybrushing. I still feel it looks better > to have some contrast as opposed to using one solid color or a > decal. My personal preference, not necessarily right or wrong. > > >I classify this along with bulged tires. Damn, if the tires on your car were that > >bulged, you would be on the way to a source of air or repair. > > I will agree with you 100% on the bulged tires and complaints about parts > being 1 mm off. The "artistic presentation" has overwhelmed the > hobby--just take a look at the *heavily* accented panel lines on > aircraft. And then the aluminum skin on some aircraft is not flat, but try > to duplicate that wavy appearence in a contest, and you haven't got a > chance! Quite frankly, these are the reasons I don't enter contests > much any more (I go for the vendors and to look). I build models to satisfy > only my standards, and I would expect others to build to their own standards. > Sharing techniques and information is, in my opinion, what counts the > most. Whether I use them (or not) is not as important to me as is the > actual exchange of ideas. > > Paul Paul, I did not mean to walk on anyone who does any of the above. I totally agree with you on all counts. This list is full of great ideas and great people. Mine was just a thought. I do feel that some judges and builders go off the deep end. An example is Kevin W.'s experience. I too build to satisfy myself. As a long time member of IPMS (#1917) I have seen it all come and go. The interest in WW1 sure turns me on. To surely date myself, the first models I built were the old Ideal Balsa models that came in an Orange box. That was in the mid -thirties. I am about to start building again after a hiatus of 20+ years. Cheers, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:14:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Padovan To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: WHAT I WANT Message-ID: Greetings, all. Here's what I want: an Albatros D.I/D.II kit, injection molded, w/ photoetched, resin, and/or metal details (guns, engine, etc.) and a decent set of decals. I would like this in 48, would love it in 72. If anyone has any influence w/ model makers, please pass this on? I recall somebody (sorry, I forget who it was) saying they recently had dinner with the president of Eduard. This kit would make a lot of sense, for the following reasons: 1. One kit, with alternate struts and radiators, could be built as 3 different a/c: D.I, early D.II, late D.II. People like me would HAVE to buy at least 3! 2. Significant a/c, flown by major German fliegers, as you all know (Boelke, Richthofen, Baumer spring to mind.) 3. Not much competition, as the only other kits are either hard to get (resins) or just bad (Meikraft.) 4. I really, really want it! Some might say, "This'll never happen." But in view of the stuff Eduard and Blue Max/ Pegasus have been producing (and this would be perfect for either of them), I refuse to give up hope. Thanks for listening. What's number 1 on your wish lists? (Besides Gotha?) Regards, Patrick Padovan P.S. I'm pretty ignorant about wwi armour: what's a "Mother"? Maybe one of the armour experts could explain? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Padovan Interlibrary Loan Associate Timberland Regional Library Voice: 360-943-5001 415 Airdustrial Way SW FAX: 360-586-6838 Olympia, WA 98501-5799 e-mail: ppadovan@timberland.lib.wa.us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:13:03 -0400 (AST) From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: Re: Wood Finishes Message-ID: <199704292013.QAA07295@fw.true.net> I have tried using decals, but you get an artificial look on it that I don't like much, and I have just finished Eduard Albatros D.V and used the a similar method described by other members. First give it a base of very light sandish color, preferably with an aerograph, then, once dry get a darker sand, yellow, a light brown and black if you are going for Albatros paneling, if you go for darker colors add red if mahogany and go from lighter to darker with a very dry brush, that is wet the brush and pass it repeatedly over a paper napkin until you can't see any paint deposited, then very lightly pass it over the model panel, preferably masking the following one, you won't see any difference, don't worry , keep going with the next color, once you reach black be extremely careful and pass it very very lightly. With the above system you won't get any wood eyes or lines, but it will give a natural wood appearance that will have people asking how you carved it. Finish it of with a semi-gloss and that's it. add the following step, and I recommend for every one to try it and see the results, Floquil has several tints for staining wood, mahogany etc. these are mainly thinner and the tint, so you have to be very careful, or you will wash the paint, wet well the brush and give it one single pass and let it dry, and see the results. My 2 Pesos worth SALUDOS ALBERTO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:43:38 +0000 From: "Paul Schwartzkopf" To: wwi Subject: Re: Wood Finishes Message-ID: <199704292051.PAA27586@tscrypt1.transcrypt.com> Bill, I'm just having a bad day today! Sounds like we are on the same wavelength. I never saw the old Ideal kits, but I vaguely remember building the old Monogram(?) plastic and wood kits. Did Ideal make WW1 subjects, or were they "golden age" aircraft? Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:06:46 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: WHAT I WANT Message-ID: Patrick writes: >Greetings, all. Here's what I want: an Albatros D.I/D.II kit, injection >molded, w/ photoetched, resin, and/or metal details (guns, engine, etc.) >and a decent set of decals. I would like this in 48, would love it in 72. > If anyone has any influence w/ model makers, please pass this on? I >recall somebody (sorry, I forget who it was) saying they recently had >dinner with the president of Eduard. This kit would make a lot of sense, >for the following reasons: > 1. One kit, with alternate struts and radiators, could be built as 3 >different a/c: D.I, early D.II, late D.II. People like me would HAVE to >buy at least 3! > 2. Significant a/c, flown by major German fliegers, as you all know >(Boelke, Richthofen, Baumer spring to mind.) > 3. Not much competition, as the only other kits are either hard to get >(resins) or just bad (Meikraft.) > 4. I really, really want it! > Some might say, "This'll never happen." But in view of the stuff >Eduard and Blue Max/ Pegasus have been producing (and this would be >perfect for either of them), I refuse to give up hope. > Thanks for listening. What's number 1 on your wish lists? (Besides >Gotha?) An Albatros D-I/II kit in 1/72 was one of their first releases produced by Meikraft in about 1988. It is low pressure injection molded and even had a few PE parts in some versions. The master for this may have been a Czech resin kit, I don't recall though. You might check the Aviation USK web site (http://www.spokane.net/cgi-bin/tame/models/door.tam?cart=96D09fsf.gpu&uu=10 960) and see if it is listed under their list of Czech resin kits. I haven't surfed here in a long time, is this URL still good ?? If 1/48 is your need, there was a Merlin Albatros D-II released about 1987. Quality is mediocre (to put it mildly) and it had a ton (literally) of white metal parts. Oddly the quality of this metal was much better than their later efforts in this medium. Plastic parts are thick, fuselages on my example and ones I have seen tend to be warped. However there was some Brit who built one up for Windsock, featured in a now long out of print issue, that did a very nice job with it. So if one was willing to put in the work a nice model could result. Again, I don't recall the origin of the master for this kit. It could have been from the Czechs, I just don't remember. Both of these kits are found on the rare kit circut from time to time. FWIW Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 17:16:52 -0400 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi Subject: Re: Blue Max Special at Squadron! Message-ID: <33666544.451C@conted.gatech.edu> Charles, Squadron's # is (972) 242-8663. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:07:26 EDT From: "Jim Lyzun" To: wwi Subject: Re: Comment on this list Message-ID: <19970429180726.06fd2ab1.in@mail.baynet.net> >> > > please take me off this listplease take me off this listplease take me off Talk about luck! In the last two weeks I've been unsubscribed twice without even trying. Or has that been a subtle hint? Jim Lyzun ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 17:20:39 -0500 From: Bill Bacon To: wwi Subject: Re: Wood Finishes Message-ID: <33667437.6FBF@netjava.net> Paul Schwartzkopf wrote: > > Bill, > > I'm just having a bad day today! Sounds like we are on the same > wavelength. I never saw the old Ideal kits, but I vaguely remember > building the old Monogram(?) plastic and wood kits. Did Ideal make > WW1 subjects, or were they "golden age" aircraft? > > Paul Paul, No problem. Ideal did all the WW1 planes, Fokker, Albatros, Pfalz, Camel, Spad, Nieuport. The also did what we would now call "golden age". Remember "golden age" was state of the art back then. Right after the war, Hawk did a series of WW1 a/c in 1/48 balsa. The boxs were red and white checkered as I remember. They were the first kits that I can remember that provided decals for actual a/c. I remember the D-VII had decals for the a/c with the large "M" on the upper wing. Real neat in those days. I guess that is when I first got interested in a/c markings. I remember the post war strombecker kits as well as the Monogram. How time flies. A wise man once sai that we grow old too soon and smart too late. He also said that youth is squandered on the young. Cheers, Bill ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 516 *********************