WWI Digest 496

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Swordfish
	by Sandy Adam <sandya@cbbs.demon.co.uk>
  2) Re: MDC Swordfish
	by Geoff Smith <GeoffSmith@compuserve.com>
  3) Re: OTF Back issues
	by GRBroman@aol.com
  4) Re: Swordfish
	by Geoff Smith <GeoffSmith@compuserve.com>
  5) Re: Sierra - Excellent Service
	by Sandy Adam <sandya@cbbs.demon.co.uk>
  6) Friday, 13 April 1917, Paris, Le Bourget, Bonneuil, Ham
	by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" <homanger@host.dmsc.net>
  7) Re: Sierra - Excellent Service
	by Bob Norgren <smodels@ne.infi.net>
  8) Re: Sopwith Triplane -- Black  Flight kit and question.
	by The Shannons <shingend@ix.netcom.com>
  9) Re: Swordfish
	by "Randy J. Ray" <rjray@uswest.com>
 10) Re: Swordfish
	by "Randy J. Ray" <rjray@uswest.com>
 11) Re: Swordfish
	by Sandy Adam <sandya@cbbs.demon.co.uk>
 12) Re: Swordfish
	by Alberto Rada <rada@true.net>
 13) Re: Sopwith Triplane -- Black  Flight kit and question.
	by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael)
 14) Re: Sopwith Triplane -- Black  Flight kit and question.
	by mbittner@juno.com
 15) RE: Bristol Fighter  details
	by Shane Weier <sdw@qld.mim.com.au>
 16) RE: Sopwith Triplane -- Black  Flight kit and question.
	by Shane Weier <sdw@qld.mim.com.au>
 17) RE: Bristol Fighter  details
	by Shane Weier <sdw@qld.mim.com.au>
 18) Re: Swordfish
	by "S.M.Sundberg" <sms@netins.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:37:06 +0100 (BST)
From: Sandy Adam <sandya@cbbs.demon.co.uk>
To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi>
Subject: Re: Swordfish
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970413122820.22278B-100000@firewall.cbbs.co.uk>



On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Alberto Rada wrote:
> Swordfish by Model Design Construction, stating that "this is the best 
> resin kit we've ever seen; fidelity of detail and fineness of parts never 
> before seen". All this marble,  at the very affordable price of $169.95
> Anyone knows this manufacturer? Has any one seen this kit? Is this 
> really the price or a typo error? Should we include this in the Guinness
> Book of prices? Is there any thing in between?
> 
This was reviewed in one of the UK magazines recently - can't remember
which - but it was given a rave notice. Yes the UK price was about 70 or
80 GBP so quite possibly double that in US. Supposed to be worth it but I
wouldn't spend that on a 1/48 kit.

BTW, the FAA still has a flying Swordfish which takes part in UK air
displays and that is quite something. They throttle back to about 80 mph
and fly past at about 100 feet with the three crew members saluting and a
red ensign flying from the Scarff ring.

When you see how slow and fragile these things are, and think of attacking
Bismarck or Scharnhorst side on against every gun on board - with the main
15" turrets raising curtains of water in front of you - Bejasus the guys
like Esmonde VC who took on the Kriegsmarine in these things should be
contemplated in awe!
Sandy


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:06:33 -0400
From: Geoff Smith <GeoffSmith@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" <wwi>
Subject: Re: MDC Swordfish
Message-ID: <199704131106_MC2-142F-F8DB@compuserve.com>

On 12 Apr 1997 @ 20:24, Alberto Rada wrote:
>The only specimen we have in scale 1/48 ( of course ) of this
Aeroplane is Smer kit No. 113 which you can call a kit only in the 
broadest sense of the word. Anyway, yesterday I received a catalog 
from Meteor Productions, where they offer on this scale a Fairey 
Swordfish by Model Design Construction, stating that "this is the best 
resin kit we've ever seen; fidelity of detail and fineness of parts never 
before seen". All this marble,  at the very affordable price of $169.95
Anyone knows this manufacturer? Has any one seen this kit? Is this 
really the price or a typo error? Should we include this in the Guinness
Book of prices? Is there any thing in between?
<

Alberto,

MDC production in the past has included conversion kits, in resin, etched
brass etc., for various marks of TBM-3 and Boston/Havoc. These were
described by "Scale Aviation Modeller International" as "excellent
conversion sets".

The Swordfish is described in MDC's Advert as including RAF & Royal Navy
versions, Marks II & III and contains decals for 11 aircraft, colours of
which are described as matched to actual WWII paint samples. (make of that
what you will). Parts are resin, white metal & etched brass with etched
stainless steel rigging wires. There is a "comprehensive ordnance
selection".

Not having seen one I couldn't comment but judging by the price it should
be pretty good (not often a clever thing to do, I know), but not good
enough to risk my future health by ordering one (G). 

The price here in UK is 75UKpounds, post & packing free overseas (airmail)
from MDC. At present currency rates $169.95 sounds a bit over the top. 

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing between the SMER kit and this one
is my wife.

Usual disclaimer regards connections to MDC.

Regards, Geoff.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:25:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: GRBroman@aol.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: OTF Back issues
Message-ID: <970413112505_84552258@emout16.mail.aol.com>

The OTF back issues are no longer available.  Thanks for all the responses.
 Glen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:26:40 -0400
From: Geoff Smith <GeoffSmith@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu" <wwi>
Subject: Re: Swordfish
Message-ID: <199704131126_MC2-1433-B10C@compuserve.com>


On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Sandy Adam wrote:

>BTW, the FAA still has a flying Swordfish which takes part in UK air
displays and that is quite something. They throttle back to about 80 mph
and fly past at about 100 feet with the three crew members saluting and a
red ensign flying from the Scarff ring.<

Sandy,

The FAA now have TWO Swordfish flying, the one you saw, in WWII markings,
and a second refurbished/rebuilt by British Aerospace apprentices about 3
years ago. The "new" one being in pre-war markings (about 1938, I think)
and more colourful, of course. Quite a solid thing to look at up close but
not much to protect you when the enemy start throwing things!

Seems sometimes like you can't go to an Airshow without one or the other
there. They're nearly as common as Harriers and Tornados (G). Sad isn't it?

Geoff

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:25:09 +0100 (BST)
From: Sandy Adam <sandya@cbbs.demon.co.uk>
To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi>
Subject: Re: Sierra - Excellent Service
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970413121902.22278A-100000@firewall.cbbs.co.uk>



On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Joseph Gentile wrote:
> Fret not Sandy,
> In a repsonse to my request Bob sent me a blurb regarding his Spring sale
> which reveals his latest plans for the WWI 1/48 line:
> things looks good for the near future.  Now relax and send me a couple of
> good bottles of Scottish beer!
> Joe Gentile 

Well I wish you were right but my info comes from April 11 and I'm afraid
it looks like Bob has produced his last "real" aeroplane for at least some
time. I wish I were wrong. I suggest you do what I just have and snap 'em
up while you can!

You don't really want Beer from Scotland do you? Uisge beath, John
Barleycorn, Water of Life  - the malt is the tipple for you my boy.
Sandy


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:09:44 -0700
From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" <homanger@host.dmsc.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Friday, 13 April 1917, Paris, Le Bourget, Bonneuil, Ham
Message-ID: <33513D88.5590@host.dmsc.net>

Thaw brought out an Amer. Flag from the Franco-Amer. committee and we 
hoisted it in front of our house. It looked fine. Our new postal secteur 
is #164. Pretty fine day. Left hotel with Lovell fairly early this a.m. 
and went out to Le Bourget. Willis was there also. All three of us left 
with our machines before noon. Brought a 120 h.p. Nieuport up to Bonneuil 
for the 84th Escadrille, had lunch there and was brought over to our 
place in an auto. Willis also. Found the fellows about ready to go out on 
patrol. Went out at 3:30 with Hoskier and Willis with Lt de Laage and 
Lufberry over us in Spads. Soon after reaching the lines we found a 
German biplace under me and attacked it. Got up close and fired three 
shots when machine gun jammed. Got over the Boche again but couldn't get 
my gun to work so had to go back to camp to get it fixed. Went right out 
again as soon as it was fixed up. Was alone but saw many French and 
English avions in the air. Got into a fight with another Boche biplace 
over St Quentin just over the top of the clouds but before I could get 
into position to fire he dove below the clouds and I lost him. Feel 
mighty sorry I missed getting one of those Boches to-day. The Capt., 
Thaw, and Johnson and Parsons came back this p.m. I still have my old 
Nieuport but with a new 120 h.p. motor and it certainly does run 
splendidly. I'm quite contented with it for the time being. Perhaps I can 
get a Morane Monocock later on. Lufberry brought down his 8th Boche at 
5:30 this p.m. in the English lines. Lt de Laage got 2 Boche machines 
last Sunday which were confirmed on Monday. One was within the British 
lines. That makes three to his credit. Secretary of War, Baker, is 
sending us the government's thanks for our services over here and a 
request that we remain here on the front. He must believe that we all 
have desires to return there and get easy jobs. Letters from Mother, 
Helen, Mrs Harper, Mrs Wheeler, Paul Rockwell, Estes, Bullard, Mrs Parker 
and an invitation from a M.P.A. Alumni dinner held in N.Y. in March from 
Mr Brusie himself -- a mighty cordial letter and one which pleases me 
very much. Mother writes that Rivers is out at sea somewhere on a 
battleship.

from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet

*******************************

Friday, April 13, 1917		Brought up a machine, a 120 hp Nieuport 
(type XXIV) this morning from Le Bourget to Chateau Bonneuil for 
Escadrille N-84. Clouds were rather low and a high southwest wind made 
the trip a rough one indeed.
	Time 45 minutes			Height 800 meters

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Friday, April 13, 1917		Started out at 3:30 with Hoskier in his 
Morane Parasol, Willis and Lt DeLaage and Lufberry over us. Clouds were 
at 2200 meters but scattered so we could go to any height above them and 
still find our way. Went to La Fere and then up toards St Quentin. South 
of St Quentin I suddenly saw a Boche biplace below me and immediately 
dove to the attack. Got up close and opened fire but after the first 
three shots the machine gun jammed so I had to turn off and went up over 
him. Tried to get the gun going but each tme it would only fire one shot 
and jam so was forced to give up and return to have it looked after.
	Time: 1 hour			Height max. 3200 meters

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Friday, April 13, 1917		Started out as soon as my machine gun was 
fixed and my tanks were replensihed (4:45). Was all alone so went 
carefully. Met many French and English avions along the lines around St 
Quentin. About 5:30 I met a Boche biplace just on top of the clouds about 
2200 meters directly over St Quentin. We chased around thru the clouds 
but before I could get into position to fire he dove thru the clouds and 
I lost him completely. Neither of us fired a shot. Just about then 
Lufberry was bringing down his eighth Boche within the British lines 
north of St Quentin.
	Time: 1 hour 45 minutes			Height max. 3800 meters

from the Flight Log of E.C.C. Genet, N-124


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:45:58 +0000
From: Bob Norgren <smodels@ne.infi.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Sierra - Excellent Service
Message-ID: <3350E396.1D5A@ne.infi.net>

Joseph Gentile wrote:
> 
> But Disaster of Disasters - I believe lack of volume is forcing Sierra to
> > move away from WW1 aircraft and concentrate on post 1918 subjects. I
> think
> > they have made their last WW1 machine and can only suggest that everybody
> > buys up what they want RIGHT NOW.
> 
> Fret not Sandy,
> 
> In a repsonse to my request Bob sent me a blurb regarding his Spring sale
> which reveals his latest plans for the WWI 1/48 line:
> 
> Brandenburg W.18
> Gotha G.V (and I've got the Rareplanes all lined out)
> Friederichshafen G.III
> Rumpler C.IV
> LVG C.V & C.CVI
> Sopwith Dolphin
> Halberstadt D-Type

Sandy's right, Joe. Due to family and other factors, I have to search for a 
more lucrative career. (Something ABOVE the poverty level!) I will 
continue the business during the job hunt, but only with new kits from  the 
1930-60 period, as the WWI market, except for several loyal fans such 
as yourself, is dead. Assuming I can get a good job, I'm going to retire the 
business until...retirement! Build some models for fun  for a change and fix 
up the house. 

So, get 'em while you can. 25% discount on Sierra kits and Blue Rider 
decals until the end of April.

Bob
Sierra Scale Models

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:38:32 -0500
From: The Shannons <shingend@ix.netcom.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Sopwith Triplane -- Black  Flight kit and question.
Message-ID: <33512828.3BAC@ix.netcom.com>

Sandy Adam wrote:
> 
> I agree that it is strange that a plane that was as good as the Sopwith
> Triplane should have had as short a life in frontline service as it did
> but the answer I think lies (as already suggested) in the armament.
> 
> Collishaw states (in "Air Command") that he was always frustrated at
> having one slow-synchronised gun that went rat-a-tat-tat with which to
> encounter an enemy who had two fast-synchronised guns that sounded like
> fabric ripping when they fired (or words to that effect).
> 
> Several times in his book he yearns for two guns and immediately
> takes one of the six two-gun planes when it is offered. He says that the
> extra gun causes loss of some performance, especially above 10,000 feet
> but that he is more than happy with the trade-off. However some of the
> other Naval Ten pilots are not so sure.
> 
> This makes me think that the performance loss was greater than you might
> immediately think from reading his account. After all Collishaw was an
> experienced pilot and like Richthofen put his faith in getting in close
> and making sure his bullets hit home. Many times in the book he uses a
> phrase like "I saw the bullets going straight into the pilot". For him
> firepower and accuracy were more important than 5mph speed. As Richthofen
> chose the Dr1 for reasons other than speed, so Collishaw would forego
> performance as the price for getting bullets on target.
> 
> Less good marksmen would perhaps be happier knowing that if they missed,
> their plane had the extra performance to get them out of trouble.
> 
> Collishaw says only 180 Tripes were made and presumably when Sopwith saw
> what they had coming onstream with the Camel they saw no point in
> building more Tripes. After all the RFC wouldn't buy them (God knows why -
> they needed them) and the RNAS had all they could use.
> 
> Sandy


Thank you, Paul, Rob, and Sandy for your comments.  I fear the truth is
that the extra weight of the gun compromised so much of the Triplane's
performance that it was no longer better in any respect to the Camel. 
Since the Camel was a lot of danger to its own inexperienced pilots, it
was a sad loss at that time, but the need for the more powerful armament
was a paramount consideration to the pilots.  (from what I understand,
the sound of the single machine gun was something along the lines of
blip ---- blip ----- blip from the slowing down of the rate of fire --
almost as slow as a man could cock and fire a carbine on the ground.).

Collishaw has his numbers slightly off -- my references show that only
144 triplanes were delivered, including the prototype.  Six were
provided with the dual Vickers, and one was provided with a strap-on
Lewis ala SE-5 and Nieuport 17bis style.

In a related question, how many of the Camels were built with the 130Hp
Clerget vs. the 150Hp Bentley and when did the latter start appearing? 
Eliot White Springs was very disparaging about the Camel, and especially
the Clerget Camels.

Thanks.
--
-- 
This has been Mark and/or Mary Shannon
at Shingend@ix.netcom.com

History manages to get away with cliches no novelist could.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:50:24 -0600
From: "Randy J. Ray" <rjray@uswest.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Swordfish
Message-ID: <rjray-9703131950.AA002121382@snakepit.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>

> Although slightly off course, or topic, the Fairey Swordfish 
> deserves our benevolence, even if it was born as late as 1934, 
> proudly is a biplane, has bracing wires, interplane struts and 
> an open cockpit, what else can one ask for, hops, I forgot, 
> and a fighting history worth of every medal the Kingdom can award.

The Swordfish paved the way for my fascination with WWI topics... I have
always found it elegant in its ungainly way. Of course, once I had developed
a fondness for *one* stringbag, when the new generation of WWI kits from DML
started to arrive, I was lost. :-)

> The only specimen we have in scale 1/48 ( of course ) of this
> Aeroplane is Smer kit No. 113 which you can call a kit only in the 
> broadest sense of the word. Anyway, yesterday I received a catalog 
> from Meteor Productions, where they offer on this scale a Fairey 
> Swordfish by Model Design Construction, stating that "this is the best 
> resin kit we've ever seen; fidelity of detail and fineness of parts never 
> before seen". All this marble,  at the very affordable price of $169.95
> Anyone knows this manufacturer? Has any one seen this kit? Is this 
> really the price or a typo error? Should we include this in the Guinness
> Book of prices? Is there any thing in between?

I don't recall exactly, but on r.m.s a few months back a resin Swordfish kit
had been sighted at a show in England. I recall the price being really high,
but that the person relating said that it was to resin kits what the
Accurate Miniatures Avenger is to 1/48 plastic kits. Assuming that this is the
same kit (could there really be *two* resin Swordfish kits in the last few
months?), then you can be assured that you will be getting what you pay for--
a superbly molded, exquisitely detailed example of this neglected subject.

Assuming, of course, that you can afford it. I, alas, cannot.

Randy
--
===============================================================================
Randy J. Ray -- U S WEST Technologies IAD/CSS/DPDS         Phone: (303)595-2869
                Denver, CO                                     rjray@uswest.com
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept." --Calvin
===============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:18:30 -0600
From: "Randy J. Ray" <rjray@uswest.com>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Swordfish
Message-ID: <rjray-9703132018.AA002521382@snakepit.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>

> 
> Seems sometimes like you can't go to an Airshow without one or the other
> there. They're nearly as common as Harriers and Tornados (G). Sad isn't it?
> 

Sad? *SAD?!?* What I wouldn't give for a good roll or two of film on one or
the other of these (bonus for a good selection of interior photos). I've been
dying to do a 1/72 scale sample using the Airfix kit, but am seriously lacking
in references. I'm sure there is a good kit or somesuch readily available here
in the states, whose price would make it a reasonable trade for such a set of
photos (with negatives, so that I could get enlargements if need be).

Randy
--
===============================================================================
Randy J. Ray -- U S WEST Technologies IAD/CSS/DPDS         Phone: (303)595-2869
                Denver, CO                                     rjray@uswest.com
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept." --Calvin
===============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:12:12 +0100 (BST)
From: Sandy Adam <sandya@cbbs.demon.co.uk>
To: Multiple recipients of list <wwi>
Subject: Re: Swordfish
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970413230449.24823A-100000@firewall.cbbs.co.uk>



On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Geoff Smith wrote:
> The FAA now have TWO Swordfish flying, the one you saw, in WWII markings,
> and a second refurbished/rebuilt by British Aerospace apprentices about 3
> years ago. The "new" one being in pre-war markings (about 1938, I think)
> and more colourful, of course. Quite a solid thing to look at up close but
> not much to protect you when the enemy start throwing things!

Cheers Geoff, didn't realise there were two of them. I've seen the WW2
one at several events - the last being Leuchars Battle of Britain Day last
September, when I was about thirty feet away from it when they started it
up and taxied it out for its display.
As you say it looks quite big and solid but I kept thinking about ten of
these taking on The Scharnhorst, The Gneisenau and The Prinz Eugen during
the Channel Dash - and crippling one of them before they were all blown to
Kingdom Come.
If there is anything that could persuade me away from a WW1 subject it
would be a Swordfish - Oh yes I do have a Merit one in the display case!
Best regards
Sandy


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:25:49 -0400 (AST)
From: Alberto Rada <rada@true.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Swordfish
Message-ID: <199704140025.UAA18020@fw.true.net>

There is an Aeroguide Classics No. 4 by Ray Rimell with lots of details 
it used to be available by Windsock people, if you can't get it, or if 
a photocopy is suficient for you, let me know, with your snail mail address
and gladly I'll send it.

SALUDOS

ALBERTO





At 04:22 PM 13-04-97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Sad? *SAD?!?* What I wouldn't give for a good roll or two of film on one or
>the other of these (bonus for a good selection of interior photos). I've been
>dying to do a 1/72 scale sample using the Airfix kit, but am seriously lacking
>in references. I'm sure there is a good kit or somesuch readily available here
>in the states, whose price would make it a reasonable trade for such a set of
>photos (with negatives, so that I could get enlargements if need be).
>
>Randy


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:35:10 -0400
From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael)
To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list <wwi>
Subject: Re: Sopwith Triplane -- Black  Flight kit and question.
Message-ID: <199704140135.VAA04031@pease1.sr.unh.edu>

At 02:42 PM 4/13/97 -0400, The Shannons wrote:

>In a related question, how many of the Camels were built with the 130Hp
>Clerget vs. the 150Hp Bentley and when did the latter start appearing? 
>Eliot White Springs was very disparaging about the Camel, and especially
>the Clerget Camels.
>
>Thanks.

        The Camel File indicates that the 130 hp Clerget became available
around February of 1917 and became the standard engine for the early Camels.
The Bentley 150 was originally called the Admiralty rotary No. 1 and used
aluminum for the air cooled cylinders. No date easily found on when it
started to appear.
HTH
Mike Muth
nb: F4F-3 Wildcat(Thanks to all for the suggestions/help)
just finished: Dotzel's Albatros D-III
next up: I think a 1/48 Camel...time to fiddle with rigging again.
np: Paula Cole(What a voice)



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:02:56 -0500
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Sopwith Triplane -- Black  Flight kit and question.
Message-ID: <19970413.210305.9062.3.mbittner@juno.com>

On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:36:01 -0400 bucky@postoffice.ptd.net
(Mary-Ann/Michael) writes:

> nb: F4F-3 Wildcat(Thanks to all for the suggestions/help)

Shhh...fwiw, I have one I'm at the painting stages at.  However,
I work at it so infrequently, that I won't finish it until next
year. ;-)

> np: Paula Cole(What a voice)

Oooo...which one?  Gads, Mike, you have some great tastes in
music.  I have _This Fire_ and think it's great.


Matt
mbittner@juno.com

nb:  Eduard D.V...just like the Energizer Bunny...
np:  Marcia Ball _Blue House_
jb:  (just bought) Kate Price (an excellent Celtic flavored
Hummel and hammered dulcimer player)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:11:55 +1000
From: Shane Weier <sdw@qld.mim.com.au>
To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" <wwi>
Subject: RE: Bristol Fighter  details
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=MIMH%l=MIMHLAN/MIMHEXCH/0000DB32@mimh3.mim.com.au>

Hi Bill,


I asked, and you kindly replied:
>
>>>1. The area on the nose under the radiator shutters and radiator core is
>>>apparently open, since the front of the engine block and forward ends of

>>There are a couple of photos in the "In Action" book - the
>>best one is on page 34 which has a photo of a post-war Falcon-
>>engined F.2B.  The bottom of the radiator ends just above the
>>propeller shaft, about even with where the bottom shutter would
>>be, if this aircraft had shutters.

>>That seems to be the best photo I can find and, as you've got
>>the "In Action", I'd think that photo should be sufficient for
>>your purposes - unless I'm misunderstanding your question.

I have the In Action and I note the phot you mention as useful, but it's
of a F.2B Mk.IV with the later shutter arrangement, and useful but not
entirely helpful.  At least it shows the open area around the engine
front - not some sort of blanking plate or extension of the radiator
core.

>>>2. I intend to finish the aircraft as a 1AFC aircraft flown by Capt Ross
>>>Smith in the Middle East.  A picture of he and his gunner Lt EA Mustard"?
>
>>Well, fans of the boardgame "Clue" (called, I believe, "Cluedo" in
>>the Mother Country) can only hope that Mustard was advanced to
>>Lieutenant Colonel before he left the service.  :-)

ROTFL !.  I'm sorry to tell you that the offcicial history shows that as
late as 1926 Mustard had not passed the rank of Leiutenant.  On the
other hand, the adjacent footnote records Lt. Hudson Fysh without any
further comment. Fysh was one of the founders of the worlds second
oldest airline, QANTAS.

>>Seriously, I don't see the contradiction between the drawing and
>>the photo.

Just my engineers eye being offended by the two perspective views which
show the right hand gun of the paired mount in the same position
relative to the mount on the horizontal part of the ring  as the single
gun, when logic suggests the gun would be more to the right of it.
>
>> Both seem similar to the twin Lewis installation
>>in the photo on page 14.  It seems to be a simple "T" coming off
>>the normal Scarff ring attachment with the guns mounted at either
>>end of the "T".  But, you're correct that better photos would be
>>helpful.

I suppose I keep looking for a photo which shows the gun adapter. It was
possibly a local adapatation anyway - so there may be variations.


>>>3.  On the side of the fuselage under the gunners cockpit is a legend
>>>which starts
>>>"This machine must not be....."
>>>in letters about 1" tall.  White letters (damn, black would be simple).

>>(Why would black be simple?)

Photocopy on clear sheet. Piece of cake...

Thanks again for your comments Bill.  I'm getting closer...

Shane

nb:   F2B , Albatros W.4
nr:  Bloody April, Black September
nl:  nothing, I'm at work, but at the bench last night, Nat King Cole.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:35:25 +1000
From: Shane Weier <sdw@qld.mim.com.au>
To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" <wwi>
Subject: RE: Sopwith Triplane -- Black  Flight kit and question.
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=MIMH%l=MIMHLAN/MIMHEXCH/0000DB78@mimh3.mim.com.au>

Matt says:

>>nb:  Eduard D.V...just like the Energizer Bunny...

What, you mean you want to batter it with a sledgehammer??

Shane

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:33:45 +1000
From: Shane Weier <sdw@qld.mim.com.au>
To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" <wwi>
Subject: RE: Bristol Fighter  details
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=MIMH%l=MIMHLAN/MIMHEXCH/0000DB76@mimh3.mim.com.au>

Sandy,

To my delight, another reply:
>
>>Sounds like you are probably our leading authority on Brisfits Shane 

I wish. sadly, the information available is not so easily come by in
these parts.

>>and my tuppence worth might not add anything but FWIW:
>>When I scratchbuilt mine some years ago, I used the old Aeromodeller Plans
>>Service plan A2692 which shows a front view divided between a RR Falcon
>>I/Mk1 to the left and a RR Falcon III/Mk4 to the right. The Mk1 plan is
>>based on probably the most authentic surviving F2B (in the IWM) and shows
>>5 horizontal louvres with an area above (small) and below (larger) covered
>>in fine wire mesh. 

I do wish I could run on down and stick my nose into Duxfords radiator.
FWIW there is a wonderful authentic colour photo of one of 1AFC's F2B
Mk.I aircraft on the cover of Cutlack (the Official History) which shows
the area *above* the louvres covered by a plate excepting the blast tube
hole for the Vickers. I can't see any sign of mesh in the lower part,
but stress that I can't see inside it at all
*or*I'd*never*have*had*to*ask*

>>I represented this on my model with some small
>>open-weave material (can't remember exactly what) and coloured this
>>gunmetal.

I have some nice mesh purchased from (of all people) Falcon, which would
do the trick if I ned it.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>These plans give side views of engine bearer framework, which I assume you
>already have, but there are OK-ish pictures and excellent sketches of this
>in the RAF Museum vol on Technical and Rigging Notes. Views are side and
>three-quarters front. These could well be used to construct a skeletal
>model a la Eduard (only in the True Believer's 48 Scale of course) if mood
>and skill so took you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'd have killed for these 12 months ago. Now I'd only send IRC's or
arrange some sort of swap. Any chance of a photocopy or two??  I'm
really curious to kow where the shutter actuation mechanism is, and
whether it's visible from in front.
>
>>In my model I built the front framework, put in an RR-ish  "lump" and
>>covered the whole nose section with thin plastic sheet with holes in all
>>the right places and popped the slatted and meshed radiator on the front,
>>It looks right to me and head-on looks like there is something in there
>>worthy of the RR badge. 

Pretty much my original idea, but I'm a sufferer of serious AMS, and
despite the kindly attention of several members of this list I wandered
off into another of those interminable building projects where too much
info is never enough :-(

Now a detailed Falcom III seems likely.

>>I do see that some pictures - such as E2285 on the
>>cover of the Datafile - seem to show just a hole but I am sure this varied
>>from batch to batch, perhaps even field-fitted.

Again, I agree entirely. There are numerous examples of variation. Since
1AFC was operating in the Holy Land, on a secondary front, they received
rather less than the best aircraft for a while, then suffered to some
extent from long supply lines. Photos show many variations in those
little scoops over the various cooling holes, badly dented panels
roughly repaired rather than replaced, extra cooling holes crudely
excised and so on..

>>I took a video in Hendon last year which may have head-on of their F2B but
>>I can't remember - any use I will let you know. 

I'd be most grateful.

>> >Sqd Sig In Action title shows the dual Lewis guns on
>> >the Scarff ring, but gives too little help as to how the guns are paired
>> >and mounted on the ring. The detail drawing on page 14 is unhelpfull,
>> >and seems to contradict the photo.  Any help anyone? Is there anything
>> >in Harry Woodmans "Early Aircraft Armament"?
>>
>
>>The book holds probably exactly what you want - ie plans on page 59 for
>>two sorts of twin-lewis rings, both fitted to F2Bs. I'm afraid I have no
>>scanning facility here, but perhaps Riordan or one of the others could
>>help here.

Any chanc of a photocopy in return for my snail mail address? Or does
someone else have a copy of the sainted Harry's wonderfull tome?

>>Hope that might be of some use.
>>(PS I trust you will paint it PC10?)

Great help indeed Sandy. Thanks.

Oh yes, at this stage it'll be PC.10, per the colour photos now resident
at the AWM in Canberrra. Where I will be travelling in June to collect
some first generation copies for *my* collection.
OTOH, 1AFC painted the Biff is white near the end of the war - an
unusual finish for a combat aircraft, even if the opposition had by then
been eliminated.

Thanks again

Shane
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:28:08 -0500
From: "S.M.Sundberg" <sms@netins.net>
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Swordfish
Message-ID: <3351B258.7767@netins.net>

Randy J. Ray wrote:
> 
> >
> > Seems sometimes like you can't go to an Airshow without one or the other
> > there. They're nearly as common as Harriers and Tornados (G). Sad isn't it?
> >
> 
> Sad? *SAD?!?* What I wouldn't give for a good roll or two of film on one or
> the other of these (bonus for a good selection of interior photos). I've been
> dying to do a 1/72 scale sample using the Airfix kit, but am seriously lacking
> in references. I'm sure there is a good kit or somesuch readily available here
> in the states, whose price would make it a reasonable trade for such a set of
> photos (with negatives, so that I could get enlargements if need be).
> 
> Randy
I finished the SMER kit last year, using the Aeroclub landing gear and
propeller, Engines and Things engine.  It required a scratch built 
interior and fiddly bits, but looks pretty good sitting in the case.  My
best two references were:
	Air International Vol. 16, no. 3 Article on Swordfish with cutaway
drawings.
	Scale Aircraft Modelling, Vol. 6 no. 7, April 1984.  This had lots of
photos as well as the usual profiles.  Especially good was one page of
overhead interior views of the cockpits.
I don't know how well they would photocopy, but would be glad to do so
if you send your snail mail address.

Steve Sundberg

------------------------------

End of WWI Digest 496
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