WWI Digest 492 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 2) Genet: his hatred of the Germans & Belgian atrocities by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 3) Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby by "Joseph Gentile" 4) Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby by Michelle and Rory Goodwin 5) Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby by Michelle and Rory Goodwin 6) Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 7) Re: felixtowe by Franco Poloni 8) Books for sale by Carlos Valdes 9) French WWI Light Tanks by Alberto Rada 10) Re: Genet: his hatred of the Germans & Belgian atrocities by gspring@ix.netcom.com 11) Re: Genet: his hatred of the Germans & Belgian atrocities by "Rob " 12) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by "Rob " 13) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by Kevin Wenker 14) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by "CLINTON P. LOVELL" 15) Re: Genet: his hatred of the Germans & Belgian atrocities by Sandy Adam 16) wwi, wwii, acw, nam by "Brian Bushe" 17) Re: wwi, wwii, acw, nam by "CLINTON P. LOVELL" 18) Re: wwi, wwii, acw, nam by aew (Allan Wright) 19) Jasta 15 by Frank Reaume 20) Button #2 by aew (Allan Wright) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:07:39 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby Message-ID: >Is this 'un outta production as I suspect? >-- >Shelley and Riordan Goodwin >Visit our websites: >Riordan's Wings of Revolution: http://www.serve.com/rgoodwin >Shelley's Jewelry Gifts: http://www.silkroadjewels.com In which scale ?? Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 11:28:33 -0700 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Genet: his hatred of the Germans & Belgian atrocities Message-ID: <334BDFD1.3A00@host.dmsc.net> Sandy Adam wrote: > > On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Rob wrote: > > > Sandy wrote: > > > The tragedy was that Tommy Atkins thought he was going off to stop the Hun > > > bayonetting children in Belgium in 1914, when really he was killing > > > fellow proles and supporting the last stages of 19th century Imperialism. > > > > Why the Brits sent Tommy off, I can't say for sure. But the "Hun"(or > > the Prussian military system, to be exact) did > > do a fair bit of bayoneting judging from the report of the Bryce > > Commission post-war. This "Report of the Committee on Alleged German > > Outrages" was not the propaganda effort one might expect, but an > > apparently thoughtful and balanced inquiry, with careful concern for > > available evidence and a healthy bit of scepticism. > > That's an interesting report. I had not heard of the Bryce Commitee - who > were they, where did they sit and why were they formed? > One of my Great War histories (I can't think which one at the moment) > states something to the effect that the World was ready and willing to > believe in German atrocities in WW1, when in fact very little happened - > whereas in WW2 it was not generally believed that horrors were being > committed and the shock of the death camps and retribution killings was > all the more unexpected when finally proved. > But you live and learn. > Sandy (compliments of the WWI History list): "Two detailed studies by German historians (P.Scholler, 'Der Fall Lowen und das Weisbuch: Eine Kritische Untersuchung der deutschen dokumentation uber die Vorgange in Lowen vom 25.bis 28. August 1914: & Lothar Wieland, "Belgien, 1914: die Frage des belgischen 'Franktireurkrieges' und die deutsche offenlick Meinung von 1914 bis 1936") have concluded that the allegations made against athe German army by the Belgian authorities were essentially true. For a very useful discussion of the relationship between actual atrocities and atrocity propaganda, see: "German 'Atrocities' and Franco-German Opinion, 1914: The Evidence of German Soldiers' Diaries" by John Home and Alan Kramer, in *Journal of Modern History*, 66, March 1994, pp 1-33. The diaries detailed the mass execution of civilians, plundering & incenderism, the use of civilians as "human shields" in attacks, and the issuing of verbal orders to soldiers to "finish off" wounded French prisoners and to refuse to accept the surrender of British soldiers. ***************** The Americans living in France before the war, out of which most of the volunteers such as Genet came, and who joined the ambulance corps, the French Foreign Legion and the French escadrilles, tended to believe what they heard about Belgian atrocities because they had the evidence all around them in Paris. The American writer Edith Wharton set up homes for Belgian refugees and her letters frequently mention individual Belgian civilians who suffered reprisals at the hands of the Germans, such as, in one instance that comes to mind: a man who had his hands cut off. As the American community in and around Paris at the start of the war was fairly small and close-knit and, as Genet, when he joined the Legion in 1915, had a number of these Americans as his friends, and was soon admitted to a circle of Americans in Paris, he would have heard many such stories from his friends who, in many cases, heard them from the refugees themselves who had fled to Paris and who were being cared for by the American community. Genet's hatred of the Germans, which we have seen expressed in his diaries, was undoubtedly fueled and, in his own mind, sanctioned by these stories. Bradley Omanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:40:38 -0500 From: "Joseph Gentile" To: Subject: Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby Message-ID: <199704091845.NAA07189@Walden.MO.NET> Riordan, I have seen both the 1/72 baby and Schneider at hobby shops as well as the 1/48 baby. The stores were CRM here in St. Louis, MO and The Squadron Shop in Wheaton, MD (Washington, D.C.) They should be somewhat accessible. As an aside Lone Star has a 1/48 vac resin kit available. Has anyone seen this baby? (pun intended). Joe G. ---------- > From: Michelle and Rory Goodwin > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Eduard Sopwith Baby > Date: Tuesday, April 08, 1997 10:28 PM > > Is this 'un outta production as I suspect? > -- > Shelley and Riordan Goodwin > Visit our websites: > Riordan's Wings of Revolution: http://www.serve.com/rgoodwin > Shelley's Jewelry Gifts: http://www.silkroadjewels.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:26:46 -0700 From: Michelle and Rory Goodwin To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby Message-ID: <334BED76.44CC@ricochet.net> Sandy Adam wrote: > > On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Michelle and Rory Goodwin wrote: > > Is this 'un outta production as I suspect? > > No It is still available (at least in the UK) and 4 Plus (one ofthe main > importers here) have a number in stock. > They tell me that the Star-Struter is almost finsihed though, and the > SS-DIII and Eindecker are running out. > 4-Plus are good and charge 15% for US p&p, they deal in Credit Cards and I > can highly recommend them. > tel UK 01702-559308. Baby is 13.95 GBP ie about 25USD incl p&p. > Sandy Sandy, Thanks for the reply. I was briefly under the impression that I'd have to acquire one and turn it into a Schneider for the Russian Civil War collection. Riordan -- Shelley and Riordan Goodwin Visit our websites: Riordan's Wings of Revolution: http://www.serve.com/rgoodwin Shelley's Jewelry Gifts: http://www.silkroadjewels.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:50:25 -0700 From: Michelle and Rory Goodwin To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby Message-ID: <334BF301.3E9B@ricochet.net> Charles Hart wrote: > > >Is this 'un outta production as I suspect? > >-- > >Shelley and Riordan Goodwin > >Visit our websites: > >Riordan's Wings of Revolution: http://www.serve.com/rgoodwin > >Shelley's Jewelry Gifts: http://www.silkroadjewels.com > > In which scale ?? > > Charles > > hartc@spot.colorado.edu Charles, It occured to me that I'd seen this kit in both scales, but this was after I'd sent the message. Preferably 1/48. Riordan -- Shelley and Riordan Goodwin Visit our websites: Riordan's Wings of Revolution: http://www.serve.com/rgoodwin Shelley's Jewelry Gifts: http://www.silkroadjewels.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:16:26 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby Message-ID: >Charles Hart wrote: >> >> >Is this 'un outta production as I suspect? >> >-- >> >Shelley and Riordan Goodwin >> >Visit our websites: >> >Riordan's Wings of Revolution: http://www.serve.com/rgoodwin >> >Shelley's Jewelry Gifts: http://www.silkroadjewels.com >> >> In which scale ?? >> >> Charles >> >> hartc@spot.colorado.edu > >Charles, > >It occured to me that I'd seen this kit in both scales, but this was >after I'd sent the message. Preferably 1/48. > The Baby was produced in both 1/48 and 1/72. I still see both on shop shelves, at least one store in the Denver area has both. The Sopwith Schnieder is only rendered in 1/72. Both 72 scale kits are nicely rendered with good photoetch bits. I can't comment too much more on them as i've only had them out for a fondle once and a while. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:39:27 GMT From: Franco Poloni To: wwi Subject: Re: felixtowe Message-ID: <199704092239.WAA24653@lo.itline.it> At 18.33 08/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:28:31 -0400 Franco Poloni > writes: > >Email me your snail mail address, and I'll photocopy it and get >it right out. > > >Matt >mbittner@juno.com > > thank you Matt here it is: Franco Poloni c/o Castello srl via S.Fereolo 9/s 20075 Lodi (Lo) Italy tell me how can I return the favour? Franco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 18:03:10 -0400 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi Subject: Books for sale Message-ID: <334C121E.4C3B@conted.gatech.edu> Guys, I thought these--especially the last three items--might be of interest. The e-mail address is rjheinz@digital.net Carlos > WWI aviation books for sale, price as marked, POSTAGE: > $1.25/first book, .50c/second book, .25c for each book after. Please E-mail me > if interested. Thanks. > > RARE - PAPERBACK > ================== > following paperbacks are from the AIR COMBAT CLASSIC series > published circa 1967-68 by long defunct publisher Ace Books. > All are first-hand accounts by top aces of World War I. > > ACE OF THE IRON CROSS by Ernst Udet ................$3.50 > Exciting memoir by the ranking surviving German ace of WWI and > one of the founders of Luftwaffe. > FLYING FURY by Maj. James McCudden ................$2.00 > Memoirs of five years in the Royal Flying Corps by one > of greatest aces of WW I. Written just before his death > 1918. > FLYING IN FLANDERS by Willy Coppens ....................$3.00 > Belgium's balloon-busting ace recounts his 37 victories > WIND IN THE WIRES by Duncan Grinnell-Milne ...........$3.00 > Excellent account of flying for the RFC by British ace > > > WORLD WAR I - Paperbacks > ======================== > THEY FOUGHT FOR THE SKY by Quentin Reynolds ..............$ 2.50 > Story of the first combat pilots > IRON MEN WITH WOODEN WINGS by Lou Cameron ................$2.00 > The aces who first made the airplane a weapon of war > THE BALLOON BUSTER by Norman Hall ..............................$2.00 > Story of Frank Luke, hell-raising super-ace of WW I > THE RED KNIGHT OF GERMANY by Floyd Gibbons ..............$1.50 > The story of Baron von Richthofen, top WW I ace > THE ZEPPELIN FIGHTERS by Arch Whitehouse .......$2.00 > Story of Zeppelin raids and fighters who tried to shoot them down > RICHTHOFEN: THE RED BARON by Emil Schumacher ...$1.00 > Story of most famous fighter pilot in history > UP & AT 'EM by Harold E. Hartney ................. $2.00 > The memoirs of the renowned ace commander of 1st Pursuit Group > > > OSPREY AIRWAR - $10 each > ============= > #13 - GERMAN FIGHTER UNITS 1914 - May 1917 > #17 - GERMAN FIGHTER UNITS June 1917 - 1918 > #18 - BRITISH FIGHTER UNITS Western Front 1917-18 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:48:22 -0400 (AST) From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: French WWI Light Tanks Message-ID: <199704092248.SAA27157@fw.true.net> Commander Series Models offer the following agricultural vehicles resin kits In 1/35 French Renault FT 17 Riveted Turret French Renault FT 17 Cast Turret Char-Cannon Renault BS Char-Renault TSF Any one seen them, built them or heard of them ? I am trying to get fellow modelers involved in WW 1 And they want some advice on this, if they are good I will have a try on one. SALUDOS ALBERTO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:07:59 -0500 (CDT) From: gspring@ix.netcom.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Genet: his hatred of the Germans & Belgian atrocities Message-ID: <19974921527441@ix.netcom.com> On 04/09/97 11:39:11 Bradley wrote: (large snip) >(compliments of the WWI History list): "Two detailed studies by German >historians (P.Scholler, 'Der Fall Lowen und das Weisbuch: Eine Kritische >Untersuchung der deutschen dokumentation uber die Vorgange in Lowen vom >25.bis 28. August 1914: & Lothar Wieland, "Belgien, 1914: die Frage des >belgischen 'Franktireurkrieges' und die deutsche offenlick Meinung von >1914 bis 1936") have concluded that the allegations made against athe >German army by the Belgian authorities were essentially true. Lowen is the university town of Louvain/Leuven about 30 miles/50 kilometers east of Brussels. I have visited friends there several times. The city was burned on the dates mentioned in the title of the study. The single act which stood out in this instance was the burning of the university library which contained thousands of medieval manuscripts and books. A new library building was constructed after the war and is decorated with the engraved names of American schools which donated funds for the effort. Barbara Tuchman has some interesting opinions on the reasons for the German Army's policy of 'schrecklichkeit' in chapter 17 of the 'Guns of August'. According to her, they viewed civilian resistance (armed or not) as criminal acts which could be legitimately punished with the utmost severity. Should you ever visit the town of Dinant on the Meuse river in the Ardennes look for the monument to the events of 23 August, 1914. At the top it says 'a nos martyrs'. Visit the Citadel and then drive down the river to Namur. It is quite a scenic trip! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:52:45 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: Re: Genet: his hatred of the Germans & Belgian atrocities Message-ID: <199704100457.AAA08963@newman.concentric.net> The Bryce Commission was officially "the Committee on Alleged German Outrages Appointed by His Britannic Majesty's Government and Presided Over by the Right Hon. Viscount Bryce, O.M.&c., &c., Formerly British Ambassador at Washington." It was formed in 1914. It included "THE RIGHT HON. VISCOUNT BRYCE, O.M.; THE RIGHT HON. SIR FREDERICK POLLOCK, Bt., K.C.; SIR ALFRED HOPKINSON, K.C; MR. H. A. L. FISHER, Vice-chancellor of the University of Sheffield; and MR.. HAROLD COX." M r. E. Grimwood Mears and Mr. W.J.H. Brodrick, barristers-at-law, were appointed Joint Secretaries to the Committee. "SIR KENELM E. DIGBY, K.C., G.C.B., was appointed an additional member of the Committee on 22nd January 1915." These men were "to be a Committee to consider and advise on the evidence collected on behalf of His Majesty's Government as to outrages alleged to have been committed by German troops during the present War, cases of alleged maltreatment of civilians in the invaded territories, and breaches of the laws and established usages of war; and to prepare a report for His Majesty's Government allowing the conclusion at which they arrive on the evidence now available." The committee's view of its mandate is revealed in the introduction to its report (quote follows): By the terms of their appointment the Committee were directed "to consider and advise on the evidence collected on behalf of His Majesty's Government, as to outrages alleged to have been committed by German troops during the present war, cases of allege d maltreatment of civilians in the invaded territories, and breaches of the laws and established usages of war; and to prepare a report for His Majesty's Government showing the conclusion at which they arrive on the evidence now available." It may be convenient that before proceeding to state how we have dealt with the materials, and what are the conclusions we have reached, we should set out the manner in which the evidence came into being, and its nature. In the month of September 1914 a Minute was, at the instance of the Prime Minister, drawn up and signed by the Home Secretary and the Attorney-General. It stated the need that had arisen for investigating the accusations of inhumanity and outrage that had been brought against the German soldiers, and indicated the precautions to be taken in collecting evidence that would be needed to ensure its accuracy. Pursuant to this Minute steps were taken under the direction of the Home Office to collect evidence, and a great many persons who could give it were seen and examined. For some three or four months before the appointment of the Committee, the Home Office had been collecting a large body of evidence. [Taken from Belgian witnesses, some soldiers, but most of them civilians from those towns and villages through which the German Army passed, and from British officers and soldiers.] More than 1,200 depositions made by these witnesses have been submitted to and considered by the Committee. Nearly all of these were obtained under the supervision of Sir Charles Mathews, the Director of Public Prosecutions, and of Mr. E. Grimwood Mears, barrister of the Inner Temple, whilst in addition Professor J. H. Morgan has collected a number of statements mainly from British soldiers, :which have also been submitted to the Committee. The labour involved in securing, in a comparatively short time, so large a number of statements from witnesses scattered all over the United Kingdom, made it necessary to employ a good many examiners. The depositions were in all cases taken down in this country by gentlemen of legal knowledge and experience, though, of course, they had no authority to administer an oath. They were instructed not to "lead" the witnesses, or make any suggestions to them, and also to impress upon them the necessity for care and precision in giving their evidence. They were also directed to tat the evidence critically, and as far as possible satisfy themselves, by putting questions which arose out of the evidence, that the witnesses were speaking the truth. They were, in fact, to examine them, so far as the testimony given provided materials for cross-examination. We have seen and conversed with many of these gentlemen, and have been greatly impressed by their ability and by what we have gathered as to the fairness of spirit which they brought to their task. We feel certain that the instructions given have been scrupulously observed. In many cases those who took the evidence have added their comments upon the intelligence and demeanour of the witnesses, stating the impression which each witness made, and indicating any cases in which the story told appeared to them open to doubt or suspicion. In coming to a conclusion upon the evidence the Committee have been greatly assisted by these expressions of opinion, and have uniformly rejected every deposition on which an opinion adverse to the witness has been recorded. This seems to be a fitting place at which to put on record the invaluable help which we have received from our Secretaries, Mr. E. Grimwood Mears and Mr. W. J. E. Brodrick, whose careful diligence and minute knowledge of the evidence have been of the utmost service. Without their skill, judgement, and untiring industry the labour of examining and appraising each part of so large a mass of testimony would have occupied us for six months instead of three The marginal references in this Report indicate the particular deposition or depositions on which the statements made in the text are based. The depositlons printed in the Appendix themselves show that the stories were tested in detail, and in none of these have we been able to detect the trace of any desire to "make a case" against the German army. Care was taken to impress upon the witness that the giving of evidence was a grave and serious matter, and every deposition submitted to us was signed by the witness in the presence of the examiner A noteworthy feature of many of the depositions is that though taken at different places and on different dates, and by different lawyers from different witnesses, they often corroborate each other in a striking manner. The evidence is all couched in the very words which the witnesses used, and where they spoke, as the Belgian witnesses did, in Flemish or French, pains were taken to have competent translators, and to make certain that the translation was exact. Seldom did these Belgian witnesses show a desire to describe what they had seen or suffered. The lawyers who took the depositions were surprised to find how little vindictiveness, or indeed passion, they showed, and how generally free from emotional excitement their narratives were. Many hesitated to speak lest what they said, if it should ever be published, might involve their friends or relatives at home in danger, and it was found necessary to give an absolute promise that names should not be disclosed. For this reason names have been omitted. A large number of depositions, and extracts from depositions, will be found in Appendix A., and to these your attention is directed. In all cases these are given as nearly as possible (for abbreviation was sometimes inevitable) in the exact words of the witness, and wherever a statement has been made by a witness tending to exculpate the German troops, it has been given in full. Excisions have been made only where it has been felt necessary to conceal the identity of the deponent, or to omit what are merely hearsay statements, or are palpably irrelevant. In every case the name and description of the witnesses are given in the original depositions and in copies which have been furnished to us by H.M. Government. The originals remain in the custody of the Home Department, where they will be available, in case of need, for reference after the conclusion of the War. The Committee have also had before them a number of diaries taken from the German dead. It appears to be the custom in the German army for soldiers to be encouraged to keep diaries and record in them the chief events of each day. A good many of these diaries were collected on the field when British troops were advancing over ground which had been held by the enemy, were sent to Head Quarters in France, and despatched thence to the War Office in England. They passed into the possession of the Prisoners of War Information Bureau, and were handed by it to our secretaries. They have been translated with great care. We have inspected them and are absolutely satis fied of their authenticity. They have thrown important light upon the methods followed in the conduct of the war. In one respect indeed, they are the most weighty part of the evidence, because they proceed from a hostile source and are not open to any such criticism on the ground of bias as might be applied to Belgian testimony. From time to time references to these diaries will be found in the text of the Report. In Appendix B. they are set out at greater length both in the German original and in an English translation, together with a few photographs of the more important entries In Appendix C. are set out a number of German proclamations. Most of these are included in the Belgian Report No. VI. which has been furnished to us. Actual specimens of original proclamations, issued by or at the bidding of the German military authorities, and posted in the Belgian and French towns mentioned, have been produced to us, and copies thereof are to be found in this Appendix. Appendix D. contains the rules of the Hague Convention dealing with the conduct of War On Land as adopted in 1907, Germany being one of the signatory powers. In Appendix E. will be found a selection of statements collected in France by Professor Morgan. These five appendices are contained in a separate volume. In dealing with the evidence we have recognised the importance of testing it severely, and so far as the conditions permit we have followed the principles which are recognised in the Courts of England, the British Overseas Dominions, and the United States. We have also as already noted set aside the testimony of any witnesses who did not favourably impress the lawyers who took their depositions, and have rejected hearsay evidence except in cases where hearsay furnished an undesigned confirmation of facts with regard to which we already possessed direct testimony from some other source, or explained in a natural way facts imperfectly narrated or otherwise perplexing. [For instance, the dead body of a man is found lying on the doorstep, or a woman is seen who has the appearance of having been outraged. So far the fact are proved by the direct evidence of the person by whom they have been seen. Information is sought for by him as to the circumstances under which the death or outrage took place. The bystanders who saw the circumstance, but who are not now accessible, relate what they saw, and this is reported by the witness to the examiner and is placed on record in the depositions. We have had no hesitation in taking such evidence into consideration.] It is natural to ask whether much of the evidence given, especially by the Belgian witnesses, may not be due to excitement and overstrained emotions, and whether, apart from deliberate. falsehood persons who mean to speak the truth may not in a more or less hysterical condition have been imagining themselves to have seen the things which they say that they saw. Both the lawyers who took the depositions, and we when we came to examine them, full recognised this possibility. The lawyers, as already observed, took pains to test each witness and either rejected, or appended a note of distrust to, the testimony of those who failed to impress them favourably. We have carried the sifting still further by also omitting from the depositions those in which we found something that seemed too exceptional to be accepted on the faith of one witness only, or too little supported by other evidence pointing to like facts. Many depositions have thus been omitted on which , although they are probably true, we think it safer not to place reliance. Notwithstanding these precautions, we began the inquiry with doubts whether a positive result would be attained. But the further we went and the more evidence we examined so much the more was our scepticism reduced. There might be some exaggeration in one witness, possible delusion in another. inaccuracies in a third. When, however, we found that things which had at first seemed improbable were testified to by many witnesses coming from different places, having had no communication with one another, and knowing nothing of one another's statements the points in which they all agreed became more and more evidently true. And when this concurrence of testimony, this convergence up on what were substantially the same broad facts, showed itself in hundreds of depositions, the truth of those broad facts stood out beyond question. The force of the evidence is cumulative. Its worth can be estimated only by perusing the testimony as a whole. If any further confirmation had been needed, we found it in the diaries in which German officers and private soldiers have recorded incidents just such as those to which the Belgian witnesses depose. The experienced lawyers who took the depositions tell us that they passed from the same stage of doubt into the same stage of conviction. They also began their work in a sceptical spirit, expecting to find much of the evidence coloured by passion, or prompted by an excited fancy. But they were impressed by the general moderation and matter of fact level-headedness of the witnesses. We interrogated them, particularly regarding some of the most startling and shocking incidents which appear in the evidence laid before us, and where they expressed a doubt we have excluded the evidence, admitting it as regards the cases in which they stated that the witnesses seemed to them to be speaking the truth, and that they themselves believed the incidents referred to have happened. It is for this reason that we have inserted among the depositions printed in the Appendix several cases which we might otherwise have deemed scarcely credible. The Committee has conducted its investigations and come to its conclusions independently of the reports issued by the French and Belgian Commissions, but it has no reason to doubt that those conclusions are in substantial accord with the conclusions that have been reached by these two Commissions. (quote ends) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:56:11 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <199704100501.BAA10539@newman.concentric.net> An unrepentent insurrectionist (Mr. Lovell) wrote >nothing we in the South didn't see under Sherman! To which I reply, Make 'em howl boys! (and Uncle Billy Sherman loved the South and Southerners--read his memoires--he just understood 'em better than most!). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:34:11 -0500 From: Kevin Wenker To: wwi Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <334C7BD3.489B@interaccess.com> Rob wrote: > > An unrepentent insurrectionist (Mr. Lovell) wrote > > >nothing we in the South didn't see under Sherman! > > To which I reply, Make 'em howl boys! (and Uncle Billy Sherman loved > the South and Southerners--read his memoires--he just understood 'em better > than most!). Sherman was the best damn general on either side in that late unpleasantness. He UNDERSTOOD war and winning war. He also understood politics. Grant didn't. And Lee wouldn't. Kevin W. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:42:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "CLINTON P. LOVELL" To: wwi Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <199704100542.AAA25911@sakaki.communique.net> My ancestors "understood" well enough that they only joined the Confederate army after "Uncle Billy" burned them out in Mississippi. "Repentent"? Hell no, and I ain't forgettin' either. Modern war and the infliction of deep pain on the civilian populace was developed into a fine art by "Uncle Billy" and General Grant. Perhaps in some future conflict, the North will come to "understand" the horrors a little better. Perhaps we Southerners can relate to the French populace a little better than the northerners, since our history has seen the horror of warfare firsthand. Having a minor degree in German and having been to Belgium and France, I can assure you that there are quite a few "unrepentent" Belgians and "frenchmen" who do not appreciate the fine German language. If Germany had won either world war, I guess they too would be "Unrepentent insurrectionalists". To the victors go the history books. Thanks but I'll believe in T. Harry Williams. I studied U.S. military History under the man at LSU and until the revisionists rewrote the texts after his death, he was very highly regarded. Yes, I have read Sherman's memoirs and Sheridan's, and many others. If Sherman "loved" the South, he most certainly had little use for his fellow man. If you are going to revere him, then do so also for "bloody Bill Anderson" and "Bill Quantrell"!! At 01:05 AM 4/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >An unrepentent insurrectionist (Mr. Lovell) wrote > >>nothing we in the South didn't see under Sherman! > >To which I reply, Make 'em howl boys! (and Uncle Billy Sherman loved >the South and Southerners--read his memoires--he just understood 'em better >than most!). > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:54:03 +0100 (BST) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Genet: his hatred of the Germans & Belgian atrocities Message-ID: Eye-opening stuff (at least for me, anyway) Rob. Many thanks for Bryce Commission info. I have some of the pictures of Belgian villages and towns where outrages were supposed to have taken place in contemporary volumes of "The Great War" by HW Wilson (Amalgamated Press, London 1915-1919) and "The Illustrated War News" (Ill'd London News 1914-1918) but had tended to view these with a little sceptecism as to what the folks back home would have been told. Just shows you how viewing history with modern preconceptions is very dangerous. Trust the man on the spot - he may be wrong, maybe even deliberately wrong - but he will give his report with a contemporary view. Funny how I was much more prepared to believe reports and photographs in these tomes on similar atrocities committed in Serbian villages. Thanks again for info. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:24:09 +0000 From: "Brian Bushe" To: wwi Subject: wwi, wwii, acw, nam Message-ID: <199704101223.NAA22810@itl.net> All this talk of atrocities committed by the germans in early wwi is getting me down, especially since it has brought up earlier american civil war points. As we have all seen quite graphically from vietnam news footage once soldiers lose a clear idea of who they are fighting they become indiscriminate. They're fighting for their lives and now everyone's a threat: and again we have seen women and children will shoot you just as dead as any man. I agree that the victors get to write the storybooks, and if you dig deep enough you'll find just as many bones in the pit. I don't think rape and pillage and slaughtering of civilians is a modern invention, but we have got better at it. Shit, now we don't even have to be on the same continent for the slaughtering. I'm sure the germans DID commit atrocities. Is that acceptable: no. Is it unusual: no. I don't know what I'm trying to say or prove with this post. People remember past atrocities and take revenge against inncocent people. What do you think would happen it Vietcong had suddenly found themselves with an AK47in a crowded shopping mall in mainland USA, 1970. Sorry for the confused post Brian BTW those people who wanted those vac instructions: I finally found them last night, so you'll get them soon. 'My mind is going. There is no question of it' - Hal 9000 Brian Bushe syclone@itl.net Syclone Systems Fieldhouse Lane (44) 01628 476 500 Marlow Fax 01628 475 522 Buckinghamshire SL7 1LU England ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:02:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "CLINTON P. LOVELL" To: wwi Subject: Re: wwi, wwii, acw, nam Message-ID: <199704101302.IAA17244@sakaki.communique.net> For God's sake don't apologize!! You've done a masterful job of saying what I feel also. Thanks!! At 08:29 AM 4/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >All this talk of atrocities committed by the germans in early wwi is >getting me down, especially since it has brought up earlier american >civil war points. > >As we have all seen quite graphically from vietnam news footage once >soldiers lose a clear idea of who they are fighting they become >indiscriminate. They're fighting for their lives and now everyone's >a threat: and again we have seen women and children will shoot >you just as dead as any man. > >I agree that the victors get to write the storybooks, and if you dig >deep enough you'll find just as many bones in the pit. > >I don't think rape and pillage and slaughtering of civilians is a >modern invention, but we have got better at it. Shit, now we don't even >have to be on the same continent for the slaughtering. > >I'm sure the germans DID commit atrocities. Is that acceptable: no. >Is it unusual: no. > >I don't know what I'm trying to say or prove with this post. People >remember past atrocities and take revenge against inncocent people. >What do you think would happen it Vietcong had suddenly found themselves >with an AK47in a crowded shopping mall in mainland USA, 1970. > >Sorry for the confused post > >Brian > >BTW those people who wanted those vac instructions: I finally found >them last night, so you'll get them soon. > >'My mind is going. There is no question of it' - Hal 9000 > >Brian Bushe syclone@itl.net >Syclone Systems >Fieldhouse Lane (44) 01628 476 500 >Marlow Fax 01628 475 522 >Buckinghamshire SL7 1LU >England > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:17:52 -0400 (EDT) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Re: wwi, wwii, acw, nam Message-ID: <199704101317.JAA21571@pease1.sr.unh.edu> I feel I have to don the had of list administrator for a moment and call a halt to this thread. It appears to be WAY beyond the realm of WWI modeling even if it did originate from our beloved Genet postings. On a more pleasant note, I'll be getting the new button on-line today along with some other contributions I haven't gotten to lately. Thanks, Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:52:52 -0400 From: Frank Reaume To: wwi Subject: Jasta 15 Message-ID: <334CF0B4.182F@microplus.ca> Need some advice from the markings experts... I'd like to finish my DR.I model in the Jasta 15 scheme shown in photo 40 on page 22 of Rimell's Datafile Special. What puzzles me is the artistic colour drawing shown on page 28 of the same document - i.e. why is the cowling depicted in a dark (khaki/brown) shade, when Imrie states in his Triplane book that Jasta 15 sported white cowlings as part of their squadron ID? Imrie's photo #67 on page 50 of his book portrays some Jasta 15 machines, and the one on the far right looks to be carrying the scheme I'm interested in. The white cowling is quite evident in this photo, to my eyes at least, so I'm back to my question on the Datafile's colour interpretation. Any comments and suggestions are appreciated. Regards, Frank ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:04:56 -0400 (EDT) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Button #2 Message-ID: <199704101404.KAA22008@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Appologies to whoever submitted Button #2, I've lost the e-mail with your name and address on it - send me the info and I'll give your proper credit on the WW page. The button image is on-line - in the News, News, News! Section of the page. My comments: Artwork: Superior to the first submission - color makes it! Info: Title in red is good, black for address is bad - hard to see. I reccomend the following changes to make this button IDEAL: 1) Change lettering from black to yellow for address. 2) Use WWW page URL (not e-mail address) for address. More info there, info on the mailing list and HOW to subscribe is there in the FAQ. Besides that, EXCELLENT work. I really like this one! -Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 492 *********************