WWI Digest 491 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Which German units flew at Soissons, 19 July 1918? by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 2) Re: felixtowe by Franco Poloni 3) Re: felixtowe by mbittner@juno.com 4) Eduard Sopwith Baby by Michelle and Rory Goodwin 5) Re: Ranking the Mail Order Houses by Frank Landrus 6) Re: Which German units flew at Soissons, 19 July 1918? by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 7) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by "Rob " 8) Kelloggs(!) kits! by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 9) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by Tony Hawkins 10) Re: felixtowe by Graham Nash 11) Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby by Sandy Adam 12) New Eduards by Sandy Adam 13) Monday, 9 April 1917, Ham, Le Bourget, Paris by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 14) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by "CLINTON P. LOVELL" 15) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by Sandy Adam ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 12:27:57 -0700 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Which German units flew at Soissons, 19 July 1918? Message-ID: <334A9C3D.6C28@host.dmsc.net> Does anyone know which German aerial units flew against the 2nd Division AEF on 19 July 1918, southeast of Soissons, near Tigny, as described below-- and whether there were any French or American units opposing them? The balloons being flamed were evidently French-- does anyone know which French balloon unit(s) was active on this front at this time? (the supply train my grandad was part of, camped in the Foret de Villers-Cotterets on this date, was badly strafed & bombed by these same German fliers. Thereafter, my grandad kept a machine-gun mounted on his caisson). --Bradley "Notable during this action was the spectacular concentration and use of air power by the opposing (German) forces. The air at all levels was filled with aircraft of all categories. The air was filled with antiaircraft bursts, and flaming observation balloons becoming black clouds of smoke were frequently seen falling to the ground. Intermittantly low-flying enemy planes swooped over our lines, dropping bombs and strafing the troops with machine-gun fire. As a defense against these attacks, when possible, sections of companies would mass and effectively fire upon attacking planes with concentrated rifles and machine guns." from Lt George Strott's THE MEDICAL DEPARTMENT OF THE UNITED STATES NAVY WITH THE ARMY AND MARINE CORPS IN FRANCE IN WORLD WAR I, p 61. Bradley Omanson homanger@host.dmsc.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:19:29 GMT From: Franco Poloni To: wwi Subject: Re: felixtowe Message-ID: <199704082019.UAA21712@lo.itline.it> At 20.31 07/04/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:56:55 -0400 Franco Poloni > writes: > > > >I show the following in my database: > >Scale Models, Dec. 1977 >Windsock Vol 7 No 2 and No 3 had a feature article; Vol 9 No 6 >"reviewed" the Aeroclub kit >WW1 Aero #109, "Cockpits & Instruments" > >HTH > > >Matt >mbittner@juno.com > > Thanks Matt I think that my only resource is to find WWI Aero #109, since I allready have Windsock vol 7 and Scale Models is to old to be still available. Do someone knows where can I find it? Or, is there any pious soul that could send me photocopies of the book?? TIA Franco ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:58:09 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: felixtowe Message-ID: <19970408.165813.9142.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:28:31 -0400 Franco Poloni writes: > I think that my only resource is to find WWI Aero #109, since I > allready have Windsock vol 7 and Scale Models is to old to be > still available. Do someone knows where can I find it? Or, is > there any pious soul that could send me photocopies of the > book?? Email me your snail mail address, and I'll photocopy it and get it right out. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 20:16:19 -0700 From: Michelle and Rory Goodwin To: wwi Subject: Eduard Sopwith Baby Message-ID: <334B0A03.6FFB@ricochet.net> Is this 'un outta production as I suspect? -- Shelley and Riordan Goodwin Visit our websites: Riordan's Wings of Revolution: http://www.serve.com/rgoodwin Shelley's Jewelry Gifts: http://www.silkroadjewels.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 22:16:08 -0600 From: Frank Landrus To: wwi Subject: Re: Ranking the Mail Order Houses Message-ID: <334B1808.DDB@flash.net> Just thought I'd throw in my experiences, although they are not all limited to WWI. I've managed to spread my money fairly evenly between the local hobby shops and mail order. My criteria being, what was not normally available locally, got answered by mailorder. (Although I must say that prior to AeroFax in Arlington closing, Tom Copeland got 99% of my money). 1) I have to agree with your assessment of Roll Models. Good pricing, excellent service. My first order was delivered in four days from placement. Can't wait till they get their online catalog up. 2) Lone Star : I haven't tried mail order with Mike yet, since I see him at the local shows quite often. At the shows, the pricing is always good and Mike has been helpful with the vacuform tios. 3) Squadron : I've never had any problem with service, either in helpfullness or delivery (usually within one week). I do live 45 miles from them, so that probably helps in the delivery time. I find their True Detail sets an incredible value for the price. 4) Aviation Usk : Tom has consistently provided kits and references not available anywhere else in the U.S. Good pricing; delivery and service has really improved from good (three to four weeks) to great (one to two weeks) with his addition of more help. 5) APC Hobbies : For a ground target buff, Charlie does pretty good. Pricing is good, delivery normally from two weeks to four weeks. The Old Kit List usually has some great deals on it. 6) Meteor Productions : Where else can I get my Swedish decals? Phone service has been great, delivery within two weeks to three weeks. barrett wrote: > > To the List > > I consider myself fortunate in that I have access to a great aviation hobby > shop here in my home town, Toronto. Even so, I have found it necessary to > resort to the internet and other catalog sources to find out-of-print and > hard-to-find kits for my budding collection. > > If one thing has struck me during this acquisition period, it is the > disparity in the quality of service of the few mail order houses I've used. > Some are truely great. Some suck. For the benefit of list members who are > thinking about using a mail order source, here are some first-hand > observations on what you might expect to find out there. (I hope I'm not > re-covering ground from Al's super web page, but rather supplimenting the > information there.) From best-to-worst, here's what I've observed (in my > own very limited scope of experience) over the last couple of months. > > 1) Members of this list! I've had the good fortune to correspond with list > members outside the bounds of wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu. There have been more > than a few kits exchanging hands since last November, and I've got to say > that far and away, our fellow list members are the most helpful and > generous lot to be found on the web. Special thanks to Len, Erik, Bill, and > all the rest. > > 2) Skyway Models (http://www.skywaymodel.com/) - Emil at Skyway is a real > gem. He's helpful, friendly, prompt, knows his stuff, and delivers the > goods fast. He has a fine selection, fair prices, and a snappy new web > site. > > 3) Roll Models (http://www.rollmodels.com/) - John Roll, who is also a list > member, has been super-helpful with my e-mail questions about product > availability and services. He's a WWI modeling buff, and the info at his > web-site proves it! His catalog prices seem very fair. I want to send him > my hard-earned money and my first order, but I'm just waiting for his > latest catalog to appear on the web. > > 4) Jean-Marc Perreault (e-mail at: jmarcp@ns.zercom.net) - This fine fellow > from Quebec has a small mail-order business, distributing his catalog > periodically via e-mail. I find the occasional well-priced Airfix or ESCI > "treasure" in his Disposals list. He is a prompt correspondent, > enthusiastic and energetic. A definite "good-guy." > > 5) Lone Star Models (http://www.lonestarmodels.com/venprod.htm) - I was a > little nervous ordering from here, since they want you to place via fax. I > never talked to anyone, nor exchanged any e-mail. However, much to my > surprise, my credit card order was processed and the kits arrived in a very > reasonable amount of time. Sure, my order was short, but these were > out-of-print kits and I had no way of knowing current stocking levels. No > problem, however, since I didn't have my hopes up in the first place. > All-in-all, I was satisfied. > > 6) Skybirds '86 (by mail only: Orchard House, Chetnole, Sherborne, Dorset, > England, DT9 6PE) - OK, they're expensive, but Mr. Eacock delivers the > goods. And when you're after a Halberstadt scout, who else are you going to > turn to? Price includes postage, which is a welcome boon. > > 7) Battle Hobbies (now defunct, but taken over by Roll Models) - Maybe it > was just that I placed my order while they were in the process of selling > their business, but it sure did take a long time to churn my kits out. > However, the order did finally arrive...short. Come to think of it, their > mail catalog was expensive too, for what it was. Once John Roll assimilates > their stock and publishes his new internet catalog, I would expect good > things. > > 8) Squadron (http://www.squadron.com/mailorder/) - Big, corporate, not very > fast, expensive shipping...that about covers it. You can hack down on the > prices somewhat by ripping through their monthly mail-outs, but I'm > beginning to think that they're not such a great deal after all. > > 9) Four Star Collectibles (http://pages.prodigy.com/4star/index.htm) - > Since Four Star doesn't take credit card phone orders, I had the > displeasure of experiencing their archaic ordering process; lasting two > months and encompassing no fewer than five long-distance phone calls. Can > you believe they put a hold on a Money Order drawn on a national bank for > 10 days? And all this for two stinkin' little over-priced kits! (Which, > happily, finally did arrive.) Expensive, slow, dull. Until they revamp > their business practices, my advise is stay away. > > Well, for what it's worth at this time, there you have it: the good and the > ugly. I know I've missed some major players, like Rosemont, Tom's, Sopwith > and others, but there's only so much money to go around! Maybe next winter. > Hope this info helps some people out there, and happy hunting (I know I've > enjoyed it so far). > > Kevin B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:50:18 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Which German units flew at Soissons, 19 July 1918? Message-ID: <199704090550.AA06538@ednet1.orednet.org> Bradley wrote: >Does anyone know which German aerial units flew against the 2nd Division >AEF on 19 July 1918, southeast of Soissons, near Tigny, as described >below-- and whether there were any French or American units opposing >them? -snips- Boy, this is a tough 'un. This was a _very_ active front during July of 1918 and _lots_ of aviation units were assigned to the German 7th Army at this time. Just about any of 'em could have been involved in the actions you describe on July 19. My quick and dirty survey discloses Jastas 1, 2, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 21(s) 26, 27, 36, 41, 45, 50, 60, 66, and 81 were all assigned to the 7th Army during this period - the cream and some of the not-so-cream of the German Jastas. While I've no references, clearly there would have been a bunch of ground attack, bomber, and observation units assigned to the 7th Army as well. Karl Paul Schlegal of Jasta 45 is credited with downing a balloon of Cie 92 on the morning of July 19 in the general area you describe (I think - locating obscure villages on the western front is always a challenge.) Still, keeping a machine gun mounted on your cassion is _always_ a good idea. (Keeping an eye out for ditches and holes to quickly jump into is even a better idea!) Cheers, -- - Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org - "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:53:06 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <199704090558.BAA25251@cliff.cris.com> Sandy wrote: > The tragedy was that Tommy Atkins thought he was going off to stop the Hun > bayonetting children in Belgium in 1914, when really he was killing > fellow proles and supporting the last stages of 19th century Imperialism. Why the Brits sent Tommy off, I can't say for sure. But the "Hun"(or the Prussian military system, to be exact) did do a fair bit of bayoneting judging from the report of the Bryce Commission post-war. This "Report of the Committee on Alleged German Outrages" was not the propaganda effort one might expect, but an apparently thoughtful and balanced inquiry, with careful concern for available evidence and a healthy bit of scepticism. The report makes clear that the attitudes and tendencies that would produce the atrocities of the anti-Red pogroms in Germany in 1918-19 and the larger-scale horrors of the Hitler era were already firmly established in the German army by 1914 and were, in fact, integral to the army at all levels , from the general staff to the barracks and cadre rooms. To the Prussian militarist, terrorism--against enemy civilians or one's own troops during training or drill--was a legitimate usage of war if it could advance the fortunes of the army in the field or improve discipline in the ranks. Before anyone says these things happen in all wars and armies, he or she should consider the fact that the commissioners summarily discarded any incident that could be attributed, however weakly, to the "heat of battle." They were looking for method, not madness, and for cold calculation, not passion, wrath, or fear. In essence, if hostile fire (francs tireurs) could in any way have been a motivating factor, the committee did not consider a German crime against civilians an atrocity, however heinous it might seem. I have quoted the conclusions below. But the full document is available on the web, or I can send it to those interested. --------------------- CONCLUSIONS. >From the foregoing pages it will be seen that the Committee have come to a definite conclusion upon each of the heads under which the evidence has been classified. It is proved-- (i) That there were in many parts of Belgium deliberate and systematically organised massacres of the civil population, accompanied by many isolated murders and other outrages. (ii) That in the conduct of the war generally innocent civilians, both men and women, were murdered in large numbers, women violated, and children murdered. (iii) That looting, house burning, and the wanton destruction of property were ordered and countenanced by the officers of the German Army, that elaborate provisions had been made for systematic incendiarism at the very outbreak of the war, and that t he burnings and destruction were frequent where no military necessity could be alleged, being indeed part of a system of general terrorisation. (iv) That the rules and usages of war were frequently broken, particularly by the using of civilians, including women and children, as a shield for advancing forces exposed to fire, to a less degree by killing the wounded and prisoners, and in the frequent abuse of the Red Cross and the White Flag. Sensible as they are of the gravity of these conclusions, the Committee conceive that they would be doing less than their duty if they failed to record them as fully established by the evidence. Murder, lust, and pillage prevailed over many parts of Belgium on a scale unparalleled in any war between civilised nations during the last three centuries. Our function is ended when we have stated what the evidence establishes, but we may be permitted to express our belief that these disclosures will not have been made in vain if they touch and rouse the conscience of mankind, and we venture to hope that as soon as the present war is over, the nations of the world in council will consider what means can be provided and sanctions devised to prevent the recurrence of such horrors as our generation is now witnessing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 00:31:31 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Kelloggs(!) kits! Message-ID: <199704090731.AA05607@ednet1.orednet.org> Perchance, does anyone have any 1/167 Kellogg's kits; 1/96 Plastiques Dermatt (Father Grap) kits; or 1/72 Brifaut kits available for sale or trade? (All WW1 and before kits, of course!) Or any 1/48 Renwall "Aeroskins"? I've a bunch of old Airfix, Aurora, Frog/Novo, Merlin, and Airfame kits available for trade plus some old, out of production "oddballs" as well. Or, cash on the barrelhead if you'd prefer. LMK with what ya' are looking for if you've got what I'm looking for. Cheers, Bill -- - Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org - "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:25:00 +0100 From: Tony Hawkins To: wwi Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <199704090825.JAA11970@netcom.co.uk> A >I have quoted the conclusions below. But the full document is >available on the web, or I can send it to those interested. > >--------------------- >CONCLUSIONS. > >>From the foregoing pages it will be seen that the Committee have come >to a definite conclusion upon each etc. etc... Yes, I would appreciate a copy of the Report if you could e-mail it. TIA Tony Tony Hawkins of Marwood Associates Specialists in "Smokecloak" smoke security systems and "Counter Fraud" Counterfeit detection devices The best way to stop the thief. See us at http://www.smokecloak.com Call me for details 01953 - 600477 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 09:49:43 -0700 From: Graham Nash To: wwi Subject: Re: felixtowe Message-ID: <199704090848.AA20248@egate2.citicorp.com> Franco Poloni wrote: > I think that my only resource is to find WWI Aero #109, since I allready > have Windsock vol 7 and Scale Models is to old to be still available. > Do someone knows where can I find it? Comet Minatures have/had a significant back issue stock of Scale Models, why not try them. I can help if your order is too small for them to use credit cards etc. Regards ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:49:37 +0100 (BST) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Eduard Sopwith Baby Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Michelle and Rory Goodwin wrote: > Is this 'un outta production as I suspect? No It is still available (at least in the UK) and 4 Plus (one ofthe main importers here) have a number in stock. They tell me that the Star-Struter is almost finsihed though, and the SS-DIII and Eindecker are running out. 4-Plus are good and charge 15% for US p&p, they deal in Credit Cards and I can highly recommend them. tel UK 01702-559308. Baby is 13.95 GBP ie about 25USD incl p&p. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:38:27 +0100 (BST) From: Sandy Adam To: wwi group Subject: New Eduards Message-ID: Hot on the heels of the Black Flight Tripe come the latest of Eduard's black-bordered boxes containing Special Edition 1/48 kit releases. Yesterday I picked up the twin-gun Sopwith and the "Mailed Gauntlet" Albatros DVa - kit number 8030. This contains the excellent Eduard Alb DV which we all know and love with a couple of extra resin bits for the ammunition "cheeks". Two subjects are kitted - Flashar's Jasta 5 Mailed Fist silver machine with Green tail; and Sigmann's Jasta 78b black bodied machine with white stars. The insignia are the usual high quality Propagteam but it looks as if Eduard are now making their own lozenge transfers and I, for one, am not too happy with the results. Upper 5-colour is not too bad but the lower stuff is very very bright. Sort of generally dark with garish orange and yellow jumping out at you. Now I believe that there must have been considerable variation in colours due to manufacture and sunlight but this is stretching it a bit far. Think of DML's lozenges on steroids! Also bright orangey-red tapes. Still at 10.50GBP the kit is not expensive and the box art as always with these new ones is terrific - Flashar downing an RE8 - wish I could buy these as prints. All in all a pretty good buy if you change the lower lozenges or maybe overspray with a light gray toning-down mist. Like the Trip and the "Red Baron" Albatros there is no colour painting guide but the new instructions are much clearer than the old ones. Except for one glitch on the Tripe where they identify "Black Maria" as N5492 which is of course the single-gun plane that Collishaw had his roller-coaster ride in when the seat belt broke. If you haven't read it, get "Air Command" - his biography, where he tells of hanging onto the interplane struts with his legs streaming out behind him as the plane bucks, weaves and falls several thousand feet towards the ground! The sketches and transfers are, however, for the correct N533 machine. For the small people, I noticed in the shop - Wonderland Models, in Edinburgh - a new 1/72 Fokker DVIII called the "Sea Eagle" with the same sort of black-bordered box as the proper sized kits and sporting an amazing Yellow and Black Diamond fuselage which was new to me. Maybe one of the leprechaun fancier's will be able to describe this one. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 08:35:36 -0700 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Monday, 9 April 1917, Ham, Le Bourget, Paris Message-ID: <334BB748.6493@host.dmsc.net> 980th day of the war. Easter Monday. Rainy all morning with occasional showers in the afternoon. Started from Ham at 6 o'clock in the auto with the Captain, Parsons and Soubiran to come into Bourget to get four new Spads and 2 Nieuports which are there for us. Lovell and Willis came along later in a tractor with 3 mechanics etc. We came by way of Noyon, Compeigne and Senlis and the trip was very interesting north of Compeigne as we passed thru the devastated region around Guiscard, Noyon and Ribecourt. We got cold and wet from the miserable rain. The trip took us about three hours. We couldn't fly back today on account of the weather so the Captain brought us into Paris. Went up to the Major's offices and found him there. Had lunch and dinner with him and his wife. Chatkoff was there for lunch so we went out together this p.m. down town. Went to see the "Follies Bergere" in the evening. They had some Amer-patriotic scenes. All Paris is decked with Old Glory in with the other allies' flags. It looks fine. Better than all the rest put together. Major Parker has to-day taken up the Navy case with Captain Boyde, the Attache at the Embassy and he (Boyd) has assured the Major he will take it up with the War Dept. and the French War Office and feels certain it will work out alright for me and that I can easily be reinstated. I'm mighty hopeful it will come out alright and certainly do appreciate all the Major has done and is doing for me. He's fine. He has been appointed U.S. Military attache to General Nivelles staff at Compeigne and may get Colonel's stripes soon. Captain Thenault has consented to let me have one of the new Spads. We are to fly out to-morrow morning. Have to be at Le Bourget by 11 o'clock. from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet, N-124 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:57:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "CLINTON P. LOVELL" To: wwi Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <199704091257.HAA20361@sakaki.communique.net> As someone pointed out earlier, nothing we in the South didn't see under Sherman! It too was cold and calculated. At 02:02 AM 4/9/97 -0400, you wrote: > Sandy wrote: >> The tragedy was that Tommy Atkins thought he was going off to stop the Hun >> bayonetting children in Belgium in 1914, when really he was killing >> fellow proles and supporting the last stages of 19th century Imperialism. > >Why the Brits sent Tommy off, I can't say for sure. But the "Hun"(or >the Prussian military system, to be exact) did >do a fair bit of bayoneting judging from the report of the Bryce >Commission post-war. This "Report of the Committee on Alleged German >Outrages" was not the propaganda effort one might expect, but an >apparently thoughtful and balanced inquiry, with careful concern for >available evidence and a healthy bit of scepticism. The report makes clear >that the attitudes and tendencies that would produce the >atrocities of the anti-Red pogroms in Germany in 1918-19 and the >larger-scale horrors of the Hitler era were already firmly >established in the German army by 1914 and were, in fact, integral to >the army at all levels , from the general staff to the barracks and >cadre rooms. To the Prussian militarist, terrorism--against enemy civilians >or one's own troops during training or drill--was a legitimate usage of war >if it could advance the fortunes of the army in the field or improve discipline >in the ranks. > >Before anyone says these things happen in all wars and armies, >he or she should consider the fact that the commissioners summarily >discarded any incident that could be attributed, however weakly, to >the "heat of battle." They were looking for method, not madness, and >for cold calculation, not passion, wrath, or fear. In essence, if hostile >fire (francs tireurs) could in any way have been a motivating factor, the >committee did not consider a German crime against civilians an atrocity, >however heinous it might seem. > >I have quoted the conclusions below. But the full document is >available on the web, or I can send it to those interested. > >--------------------- >CONCLUSIONS. > >>From the foregoing pages it will be seen that the Committee have come >to a definite conclusion upon each of the heads under which the >evidence has been classified. > >It is proved-- > >(i) That there were in many parts of Belgium deliberate and >systematically organised massacres of the civil population, >accompanied by many isolated murders and other outrages. > >(ii) That in the conduct of the war generally innocent civilians, both >men and women, were murdered in large numbers, women violated, and >children murdered. > >(iii) That looting, house burning, and the wanton destruction of >property were ordered and countenanced by the officers of the German >Army, that elaborate provisions had been made for systematic >incendiarism at the very outbreak of the war, and that t he burnings >and destruction were frequent where no military necessity could be >alleged, being indeed part of a system of general terrorisation. > >(iv) That the rules and usages of war were frequently broken, >particularly by the using of civilians, including women and children, >as a shield for advancing forces exposed to fire, to a less degree by >killing the wounded and prisoners, and in the frequent abuse of the >Red Cross and the White Flag. > >Sensible as they are of the gravity of these conclusions, the >Committee conceive that they would be doing less than their duty if >they failed to record them as fully established by the evidence. >Murder, lust, and pillage prevailed over many parts of Belgium on a >scale unparalleled in any war between civilised nations during the >last three centuries. > >Our function is ended when we have stated what the evidence >establishes, but we may be permitted to express our belief that these >disclosures will not have been made in vain if they touch and rouse >the conscience of mankind, and we venture to hope that as soon as the >present war is over, the nations of the world in council will consider >what means can be provided and sanctions devised to prevent the >recurrence of such horrors as our generation is now witnessing. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:35:06 +0100 (BST) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Rob wrote: > Sandy wrote: > > The tragedy was that Tommy Atkins thought he was going off to stop the Hun > > bayonetting children in Belgium in 1914, when really he was killing > > fellow proles and supporting the last stages of 19th century Imperialism. > > Why the Brits sent Tommy off, I can't say for sure. But the "Hun"(or > the Prussian military system, to be exact) did > do a fair bit of bayoneting judging from the report of the Bryce > Commission post-war. This "Report of the Committee on Alleged German > Outrages" was not the propaganda effort one might expect, but an > apparently thoughtful and balanced inquiry, with careful concern for > available evidence and a healthy bit of scepticism. That's an interesting report. I had not heard of the Bryce Commitee - who were they, where did they sit and why were they formed? One of my Great War histories (I can't think which one at the moment) states something to the effect that the World was ready and willing to believe in German atrocities in WW1, when in fact very little happened - whereas in WW2 it was not generally believed that horrors were being committed and the shock of the death camps and retribution killings was all the more unexpected when finally proved. But you live and learn. Sandy ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 491 *********************