WWI Digest 490 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: WWI Veterans by "Bill Ciciora" 2) Re: Datafile Reprints by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 3) felixtowe by Franco Poloni 4) Re: List Pin by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 5) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by "CLINTON P. LOVELL" 6) Re: felixtowe by mbittner@juno.com 7) Re: List Pin by mbittner@juno.com 8) Ranking the Mail Order Houses by barrett@iplink.net (barrett) 9) Re: Strutters/Pups of the Rising Sun by Hirohisa Ozaki 10) Re: Ranking the Mail Order Houses by phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) 11) Re: List Pin by "huggins@onramp.net" 12) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by lothar@televar.com (mark) 13) Books for sale by thayer@sirius.com (Thayer Syme) 14) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by Sandy Adam 15) Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel by Kevin Wenker 16) Re: List Pin by aew (Allan Wright) 17) Sunday, 8 April 1917, Ham by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:41:02 -0500 From: "Bill Ciciora" To: Subject: Re: WWI Veterans Message-ID: Kevin W. wrote: > I was very fortunate that my grandfather did make it back from the > trenches. He was in the field artillery and drove caissons right up > to the front lines delivering ammo. Same here. My maternal grandfather (Czech heritage) was in the Austro-Hungarian army on the Italian front. An intelligent young man; being from a rural background, he was able to convice his superiors that he could handle horses. Instead of being shot at all the time, he drove supplies up to the lines. He then made the even more intelligent choice to come to the USA in 1928. Bill C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:45:07 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Datafile Reprints Message-ID: In the begining ... Graham wrote: >In case you weren't aware, the latest Datafile reprints are out, namely >11 & 12 only. Mr R doesn't seem to be printing No 10 (SE5a). > >So, anyone out there want to sell me their no 10. > >BTW, yes I do have the SE5 Datafile Special, and yes I will also be >posting on the Swap n' Shop web page, but there's so little action going >on there, I don't know if anyone's reading it. > >Forthcoming Datafiles/MiniDatefiles/Classics/Specials >Dornier D.I (MD) >Bregeut 14 (D) >DH4 (D) >DH9 (D) >DH9A (D) >Handley Page 0/100/400 (C) >Martinsyde F.4 (MD?) >Nieuport 29 (D?) >Bristol F.2B No 2 (S) No 1 is out now..., no plans of the larger >tailplane though-see No 2. And Ray Boorman responded: >I picked up 11 and 12 today as well. However I understand that 10 will not >be reprinted since >Ray says its replaced by the SE5 Special. The same will be true of #20 the >Nieuport 17. >I have both specials but since I'm now only missing 10, 20 and 23 this >sucks big time. >Anyone think of a second hand source for 10 and 20. I guess the Sopwith Pup >reprint can't have sold very well? To continue... Thanks Graham for providing this list of upcoming subjects. To my mind, the DH subjects and Br.14 are long overdue for Datafile treatment. I would be willing to bet that more DH-4s were built than the combined production runs of the 6 less notable aircraft that are covered by 1997's Datafile series. Given that the DHs and Br.14 were all the subject of Profiles, I wonder what has taken Ray R so long to get to these. I also find it interesting that two of the Datafiles (Se-5a and Ni.17) won't be reprinted. Sorry, my copies of these are not for sale. In the sizeable collection of Datafile and Windsocks that I have, one fact has become clear to me, that is that quite a bit of material (mostly photos) has been recycled through several different publications. Photos and plans of the Pfalz D-III are a case in point, being found in both a Datafile and one of the "WWI Warplanes" volumes. One thing that I have noticed though, much to my surprise I might add, is that there is very LITTLE overlap in photo coverage between the Se-5a Datafile and the subsequent Datafile Special on the type. Given that the Datafile cover painting was probably the nicest one of the 60+ published so far, I find it a shame not to be reprinted. Perhaps this says something about the overall level of enthusiasm in the WW I community for Allied versus Central Powers aircraft. Personally, I have never been much of a fan of the Se-5/5a (go ahead, flame away). But I can recommend to fans of this type a new book available from Air-Britain publishers (http://www.air-brit.demon.co.uk/), the"Se-5 File". It covers both the 5 and 5a and has the same comprehensive coverage of use and fate of each airframe built as found in the earlier book "The Camel File" from the same publisher. The Se-5 File has much more color in it than found in the Se-5a Datafile and Special combined and the Air-Britain book also has many more photographs. The price for the Se-5 File is 20.00 pounds (16.00 pounds if you belong to Air-Britain or Cross & Cockade International) and is available via mail order, and yes, they will accept credit cards (avoids currency hassles). FWIW Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:34:03 GMT From: Franco Poloni To: wwi Subject: felixtowe Message-ID: <199704072134.VAA19174@lo.itline.it> Hi List Got a problem: I want to buil my Aeroclub Felixtowe, but I don't have any good drawing or photo of the internal arrangement of this aircraft, can someone suggest me a good (available) reference for this purpose? I have articles from Windsock Int., but need some more. If any of you guys have something, and want to send it to me, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks Franco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:57:14 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: List Pin Message-ID: >I propose we go with John's idea anyway. As he already said, >he's under a time constraint, and needs to know now. Since it's >only a "small" pin, we can use this for the "time being" until >others can come up with a more "permanent" solution. > >Since our next contest in this area is 19 April, I would really >like to have the pin before then. I realize it's probably too >soon, but at least we can have something relatively quickly, >before most of the "larger" contests get under way. > >Thoughts/ideas? > With all due respect, the only thing I recall having heard from John regarding this pin was his willingness to make them and his objections to certain URLs that appeared on the only design to be offered (so far). Is an alternate design being offered or is this just a choice between Rob's design with multiple URLs and a tiny Blue Max? I'd appreciate some clarification on this subject. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:22:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "CLINTON P. LOVELL" To: wwi Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <199704072222.RAA06343@sakaki.communique.net> Capitalism notwithstanding, the sacrifice of 11 million (this in WWI- we won't even talk about WWII which grew from the ashes of WWI) young lives is illogical as hell without any moral cause. In all the conversations I had with WWI vets, I never met one that was fighting for capitalism. In fact, most only fought, because they were told to fight. They only knew that thier country was at war, and they were therefore duty and honor bound to fight. Useless alliances and a misguided sense of adventure are the more likely causes. War in the Balkans led to this war. War in the Balkans is a way of life and continues to be. Undoubtably, when the US leaves again, it will resume being!! Clinton P. Lovell At 09:04 AM 4/7/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, CLINTON P. LOVELL wrote: > >> And the irony is that there was very little logical reason for this war. > >I've just been rereading Winged Victory by VM Yates, which I recommend to >any who do not already know it for a superb contemporary view by one of >the pilots on the reasons for the war. >Along the lines of Capitalism running rampant in profits from the arms >industry and America having to enter the war in order not to have its >economy left behind by the strength of European industry and currency. All >this paid for in the blood of youth. > >Yates was of course an Irish pilot in the RFC and survived the latter >years of the war to die in squalor in the thirties with his masterpiece >generally unrecognised. Winged Victory is as important a WW1 literary work >as Journey's End and All Quiet on the Western Front. >Sandy > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:41:01 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: felixtowe Message-ID: <19970407.185348.16454.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:56:55 -0400 Franco Poloni writes: > Got a problem: I want to buil my Aeroclub Felixtowe, but I don't > have any good drawing or photo of the internal arrangement of > this aircraft, can someone suggest me a good (available) > reference for this purpose? I have articles from Windsock Int., > but need some more. If any of you guys have something, and want > to send it to me, I'd really appreciate it. I show the following in my database: Scale Models, Dec. 1977 Windsock Vol 7 No 2 and No 3 had a feature article; Vol 9 No 6 "reviewed" the Aeroclub kit WW1 Aero #109, "Cockpits & Instruments" HTH Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:46:19 -0500 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: List Pin Message-ID: <19970407.185348.16454.1.mbittner@juno.com> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:57:07 -0400 hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) writes: > With all due respect, the only thing I recall having heard from > John regarding this pin was his willingness to make them and his > objections to certain URLs that appeared on the only design to > be offered (so far). Is an alternate design being offered or is > this just a choice between Rob's design with multiple URLs and a > tiny Blue Max? I'd appreciate some clarification on this > subject. John has an alternate design, with only Al's URL on it. I'm hoping he emails a copy to Al soon, so we can see it. There's also one other on the list looking into another source. However, until he gets more information, I'm not going to say more. So, we have (1) Rob's design, which is a design *only*, and we still need to come up with a button source; (2) John's idea, which is a design *and* the button (or, design on the button); and finally (3) another list member's other source. Since John can get these things out quickly, I say we go with (2) for sure. (1) is only a design, and (3) has not bloomed to fruition, plus I know it will cost each list member (not alot; very reasonable, so let me get that out of the way before I scare anybody). Hope this clears things up. Are we past a point of not return, John? Have you been able to email your design to Al yet? Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:11:16 -0500 From: barrett@iplink.net (barrett) To: wwi Subject: Ranking the Mail Order Houses Message-ID: To the List I consider myself fortunate in that I have access to a great aviation hobby shop here in my home town, Toronto. Even so, I have found it necessary to resort to the internet and other catalog sources to find out-of-print and hard-to-find kits for my budding collection. If one thing has struck me during this acquisition period, it is the disparity in the quality of service of the few mail order houses I've used. Some are truely great. Some suck. For the benefit of list members who are thinking about using a mail order source, here are some first-hand observations on what you might expect to find out there. (I hope I'm not re-covering ground from Al's super web page, but rather supplimenting the information there.) From best-to-worst, here's what I've observed (in my own very limited scope of experience) over the last couple of months. 1) Members of this list! I've had the good fortune to correspond with list members outside the bounds of wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu. There have been more than a few kits exchanging hands since last November, and I've got to say that far and away, our fellow list members are the most helpful and generous lot to be found on the web. Special thanks to Len, Erik, Bill, and all the rest. 2) Skyway Models (http://www.skywaymodel.com/) - Emil at Skyway is a real gem. He's helpful, friendly, prompt, knows his stuff, and delivers the goods fast. He has a fine selection, fair prices, and a snappy new web site. 3) Roll Models (http://www.rollmodels.com/) - John Roll, who is also a list member, has been super-helpful with my e-mail questions about product availability and services. He's a WWI modeling buff, and the info at his web-site proves it! His catalog prices seem very fair. I want to send him my hard-earned money and my first order, but I'm just waiting for his latest catalog to appear on the web. 4) Jean-Marc Perreault (e-mail at: jmarcp@ns.zercom.net) - This fine fellow from Quebec has a small mail-order business, distributing his catalog periodically via e-mail. I find the occasional well-priced Airfix or ESCI "treasure" in his Disposals list. He is a prompt correspondent, enthusiastic and energetic. A definite "good-guy." 5) Lone Star Models (http://www.lonestarmodels.com/venprod.htm) - I was a little nervous ordering from here, since they want you to place via fax. I never talked to anyone, nor exchanged any e-mail. However, much to my surprise, my credit card order was processed and the kits arrived in a very reasonable amount of time. Sure, my order was short, but these were out-of-print kits and I had no way of knowing current stocking levels. No problem, however, since I didn't have my hopes up in the first place. All-in-all, I was satisfied. 6) Skybirds '86 (by mail only: Orchard House, Chetnole, Sherborne, Dorset, England, DT9 6PE) - OK, they're expensive, but Mr. Eacock delivers the goods. And when you're after a Halberstadt scout, who else are you going to turn to? Price includes postage, which is a welcome boon. 7) Battle Hobbies (now defunct, but taken over by Roll Models) - Maybe it was just that I placed my order while they were in the process of selling their business, but it sure did take a long time to churn my kits out. However, the order did finally arrive...short. Come to think of it, their mail catalog was expensive too, for what it was. Once John Roll assimilates their stock and publishes his new internet catalog, I would expect good things. 8) Squadron (http://www.squadron.com/mailorder/) - Big, corporate, not very fast, expensive shipping...that about covers it. You can hack down on the prices somewhat by ripping through their monthly mail-outs, but I'm beginning to think that they're not such a great deal after all. 9) Four Star Collectibles (http://pages.prodigy.com/4star/index.htm) - Since Four Star doesn't take credit card phone orders, I had the displeasure of experiencing their archaic ordering process; lasting two months and encompassing no fewer than five long-distance phone calls. Can you believe they put a hold on a Money Order drawn on a national bank for 10 days? And all this for two stinkin' little over-priced kits! (Which, happily, finally did arrive.) Expensive, slow, dull. Until they revamp their business practices, my advise is stay away. Well, for what it's worth at this time, there you have it: the good and the ugly. I know I've missed some major players, like Rosemont, Tom's, Sopwith and others, but there's only so much money to go around! Maybe next winter. Hope this info helps some people out there, and happy hunting (I know I've enjoyed it so far). Kevin B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 12:06:44 +0900 From: Hirohisa Ozaki To: wwi Subject: Re: Strutters/Pups of the Rising Sun Message-ID: <9704080307.AA00571@wight.miln.mei.co.jp> Sopwith fighters which No. 1 Airgroup and No. 2 Airgroup(four So shiki) were mainly Imperial Japanese Army. Navy's Sopwith Pup a few. Army had fifty Pup, but Navy had one Scheneider and a few Pup. No.2 Airgroup went "chita"(this is Roma-ji cause this is written by katakana in my refer and I can not find this place name indicated by English). Navy air service used Mo shiki 4 gata and Mo shiki 6 gata mainly. "Mo shiki" is MF pusher type aircraft, 4 gata is air-cooled, 6 gata is water- cooled. What are "true name" them? IMHO, the photo in Datafiles aircraft took in Japan. Because I think back scene in the photo is somewhere in Japan. I have no interest WW1 airplane which Japan used. It has no funny marking and it has no originality, all of them were imported or dead-copy. Cheers! Hiro. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:30:26 -0500 From: phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) To: Subject: Re: Ranking the Mail Order Houses Message-ID: <19970408033228.AAA917@default> Just a quick comment on Lone Star Models. Mike West is the owner and I've been doing business with him for years. Always had first rate prices on non-Lone Star items and Outstanding service. Oh yeah, he also has a 1/48th scale Junkers J.1. I haven't seen the whole kit, but I saw the photo etched parts for it about a year ago. They were outstanding. Just my $0.02 Paul Howard ---------- > From: barrett > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Ranking the Mail Order Houses > Date: Monday, April 07, 1997 9:07 PM > > To the List > > I consider myself fortunate in that I have access to a great aviation hobby > shop here in my home town, Toronto. Even so, I have found it necessary to > resort to the internet and other catalog sources to find out-of-print and > hard-to-find kits for my budding collection. > > If one thing has struck me during this acquisition period, it is the > disparity in the quality of service of the few mail order houses I've used. > Some are truely great. Some suck. For the benefit of list members who are > thinking about using a mail order source, here are some first-hand > observations on what you might expect to find out there. (I hope I'm not > re-covering ground from Al's super web page, but rather supplimenting the > information there.) From best-to-worst, here's what I've observed (in my > own very limited scope of experience) over the last couple of months. > > 1) Members of this list! I've had the good fortune to correspond with list > members outside the bounds of wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu. There have been more > than a few kits exchanging hands since last November, and I've got to say > that far and away, our fellow list members are the most helpful and > generous lot to be found on the web. Special thanks to Len, Erik, Bill, and > all the rest. > > 2) Skyway Models (http://www.skywaymodel.com/) - Emil at Skyway is a real > gem. He's helpful, friendly, prompt, knows his stuff, and delivers the > goods fast. He has a fine selection, fair prices, and a snappy new web > site. > > 3) Roll Models (http://www.rollmodels.com/) - John Roll, who is also a list > member, has been super-helpful with my e-mail questions about product > availability and services. He's a WWI modeling buff, and the info at his > web-site proves it! His catalog prices seem very fair. I want to send him > my hard-earned money and my first order, but I'm just waiting for his > latest catalog to appear on the web. > > 4) Jean-Marc Perreault (e-mail at: jmarcp@ns.zercom.net) - This fine fellow > from Quebec has a small mail-order business, distributing his catalog > periodically via e-mail. I find the occasional well-priced Airfix or ESCI > "treasure" in his Disposals list. He is a prompt correspondent, > enthusiastic and energetic. A definite "good-guy." > > 5) Lone Star Models (http://www.lonestarmodels.com/venprod.htm) - I was a > little nervous ordering from here, since they want you to place via fax. I > never talked to anyone, nor exchanged any e-mail. However, much to my > surprise, my credit card order was processed and the kits arrived in a very > reasonable amount of time. Sure, my order was short, but these were > out-of-print kits and I had no way of knowing current stocking levels. No > problem, however, since I didn't have my hopes up in the first place. > All-in-all, I was satisfied. > > 6) Skybirds '86 (by mail only: Orchard House, Chetnole, Sherborne, Dorset, > England, DT9 6PE) - OK, they're expensive, but Mr. Eacock delivers the > goods. And when you're after a Halberstadt scout, who else are you going to > turn to? Price includes postage, which is a welcome boon. > > 7) Battle Hobbies (now defunct, but taken over by Roll Models) - Maybe it > was just that I placed my order while they were in the process of selling > their business, but it sure did take a long time to churn my kits out. > However, the order did finally arrive...short. Come to think of it, their > mail catalog was expensive too, for what it was. Once John Roll assimilates > their stock and publishes his new internet catalog, I would expect good > things. > > 8) Squadron (http://www.squadron.com/mailorder/) - Big, corporate, not very > fast, expensive shipping...that about covers it. You can hack down on the > prices somewhat by ripping through their monthly mail-outs, but I'm > beginning to think that they're not such a great deal after all. > > 9) Four Star Collectibles (http://pages.prodigy.com/4star/index.htm) - > Since Four Star doesn't take credit card phone orders, I had the > displeasure of experiencing their archaic ordering process; lasting two > months and encompassing no fewer than five long-distance phone calls. Can > you believe they put a hold on a Money Order drawn on a national bank for > 10 days? And all this for two stinkin' little over-priced kits! (Which, > happily, finally did arrive.) Expensive, slow, dull. Until they revamp > their business practices, my advise is stay away. > > Well, for what it's worth at this time, there you have it: the good and the > ugly. I know I've missed some major players, like Rosemont, Tom's, Sopwith > and others, but there's only so much money to go around! Maybe next winter. > Hope this info helps some people out there, and happy hunting (I know I've > enjoyed it so far). > > Kevin B. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:35:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "huggins@onramp.net" To: wwi Subject: Re: List Pin Message-ID: >On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:57:07 -0400 hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU > >So, we have (1) Rob's design, which is a design *only*, and we >still need to come up with a button source; (2) John's idea, >which is a design *and* the button (or, design on the button); >and finally (3) another list member's other source. > >Since John can get these things out quickly, I say we go with (2) >for sure. (1) is only a design, and (3) has not bloomed to >fruition, plus I know it will cost each list member (not alot; >very reasonable, so let me get that out of the way before I scare >anybody). > >Hope this clears things up. Are we past a point of not return, >John? Have you been able to email your design to Al yet? > > Matt, The proposal was sent to Al on Saturday. i do not know if he has got it yet. John Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:47:16 -0700 (PDT) From: lothar@televar.com (mark) To: wwi Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <199704080747.AAA06347@concord.televar.com> >Cut him some slack is right! I've been following these diary entries for >six months, and not knowing anything else about Genet, and not having the >book that the entries are taken from, I had no idea about this guy's fate. >In fact, I thought he probably survived the war to publish his war diary >himself. Then, just yesterday, I ran across some information about him in >"Bloody April...Black September" and was mortified to learn what befell >him. It made me very, very sad. This young man has really been brought to >life for me over the past half-year. To think that all the aviators and >young soldiers of WWI were so human...the conflict was such a waste. > >My thanks to the diligent soul who has transcribed this diary for us. And mine too, I really mean that. Having made more than a few wisecracks at some of Genets diary entries, it is indeed sobering to discover that he is destined to purchase the farm in the near future - I too had thought that he survived the war, and published his diary afterwards. Bummer...well, no more Gertie jokes from me, it just doesn't seem right. Hope no one's been offended, I really didn't know. Speaking of the waste of the conflict - I recently finished Martin Gilberts weighty tome on WWI, and....to realize what human beings are capable of doing to one another, it's just all too much. Damn, I think I need another beer.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 01:32:58 -0700 From: thayer@sirius.com (Thayer Syme) To: wwi Subject: Books for sale Message-ID: Recently sifting through the old bookcase, I realized there are a number of volumes I rarely reference, and don't expect to see that change. So I've decided to thin out the stock a bit. A few titles are WWI related, others are appropriate to those of us tempted to stray from the faith. All are in excellent condition. Check out the list at: and make an offer if you are interested in any titles. Sincerely, Thayer -- Thayer Syme Free Flight Homepage San Francisco www/sirius.com/~thayer/modelhp.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:24:24 +0100 (BST) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, CLINTON P. LOVELL wrote: > Capitalism notwithstanding, the sacrifice of 11 million (this in WWI- we > won't even talk about WWII which grew from the ashes of WWI) young lives is > illogical as hell without any moral cause. In all the conversations I had > with WWI vets, I never met one that was fighting for capitalism. In fact, That's exactly the point Clinton; the Great War was a useless stupid war that had been brewing for many years because of the jostling for power of several SuperPowers - the Balkan spark did not cause the war in itself, but was a catalyst which allowed the Great Powers to launch into conflict. Interestingly, it seemed much more likely that Britain and Germany would have been on the same side against France until only fairly shortly before F-F's assassination. The tragedy was that Tommy Atkins thought he was going off to stop the Hun bayonetting children in Belgium in 1914, when really he was killing fellow proles and supporting the last stages of 19th century Imperialism. You should read Winged Victory as the point is that none of the other pilots know why they are in France and invite the politically-aware chap to air his views so they can have some sport with him. The Second World war was a much more clear-cut affair polemically: the Fascists were out for World domination and we fought the Battle of Britain as a last stand against the Nazi jackboot. Had the Luftwaffe cleared the skies of the RAF in 1940, concentration camps would have begun to appear in the British Isles with all the attendant paraphenalia of a totalitarian state. (In 1942 America would then have faced the might of a unified Nazi Europe with Graf Zeppelin type carriers and "Amerika" 4-engined bombers, not to mention the missiles, zipping westwards.) My Dad knew exactly why he flew Mosquitos in WW2, but my parental Grandad could not tell me why he rode into France on his horse (11 Hussars) and then spent five years in the trenches. Neither could my maternal Grandfather tell me why he exchanged cigarettes on Christmas Day with some Bavarians and then was machine-gunned by them a few days later. I have momentoes from both and this includes a box with a note and some badges given to the latter on the Hospital Ship from his mates: the note says that the badges came from the Hun who had machine-gunned Fred and whom they had bayonetted and sent his epaulettes etc. These guys sang Carols together a few days previously !??!!? Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 07:59:13 -0700 From: Kevin Wenker To: wwi Subject: Re: Wednesday, 4 April 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <334A5D41.2CD6@interaccess.com> Sandy Adam wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, CLINTON P. LOVELL wrote: > > > Capitalism notwithstanding, the sacrifice of 11 million (this in WWI- we > > won't even talk about WWII which grew from the ashes of WWI) young lives is > > illogical as hell without any moral cause. In all the conversations I had > > with WWI vets, I never met one that was fighting for capitalism. In fact, > > That's exactly the point Clinton; the Great War was a useless stupid war > that had been brewing for many years because of the jostling for power of > several SuperPowers - the Balkan spark did not cause the war in itself, > but was a catalyst which allowed the Great Powers to launch into conflict. > Interestingly, it seemed much more likely that Britain and Germany would > have been on the same side against France until only fairly shortly before > F-F's assassination. > > The tragedy was that Tommy Atkins thought he was going off to stop the Hun > bayonetting children in Belgium in 1914, when really he was killing > fellow proles and supporting the last stages of 19th century Imperialism. > > You should read Winged Victory as the point is that none of the other > pilots know why they are in France and invite the politically-aware chap > to air his views so they can have some sport with him. > > The Second World war was a much more clear-cut affair polemically: the > Fascists were out for World domination and we fought the Battle of > Britain as a last stand against the Nazi jackboot. Had the Luftwaffe > cleared the skies of the RAF in 1940, concentration camps would have begun > to appear in the British Isles with all the attendant paraphenalia of a > totalitarian state. (In 1942 America would then have faced the might of > a unified Nazi Europe with Graf Zeppelin type carriers and "Amerika" > 4-engined bombers, not to mention the missiles, zipping westwards.) > > My Dad knew exactly why he flew Mosquitos in WW2, but my parental Grandad > could not tell me why he rode into France on his horse (11 Hussars) and > then spent five years in the trenches. Neither could my maternal > Grandfather tell me why he exchanged cigarettes on Christmas Day with some > Bavarians and then was machine-gunned by them a few days later. I have > momentoes from both and this includes a box with a note and some badges > given to the latter on the Hospital Ship from his mates: the note says > that the badges came from the Hun who had machine-gunned Fred and whom > they had bayonetted and sent his epaulettes etc. These guys sang Carols > together a few days previously !??!!? > > Sandy Our American Civil War was no different. No war is. Kevin W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:04:23 -0400 (EDT) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Re: List Pin Message-ID: <199704081304.JAA14014@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > Matt, > The proposal was sent to Al on Saturday. i do not know if he has got it yet. > John I'll have it on-line today. I'll send the list a message when it is. -Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 08:54:54 -0700 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Sunday, 8 April 1917, Ham Message-ID: <334A6A4E.4D98@host.dmsc.net> 979. Easter Sunday. Excellent day. No service in the morning so took a walk. There was a Farman which burned up in the air over the field this morning and the observer died from wounds and the pilot was very seriously hurt. Went out at 2 o'clock. Was chief of the Patrol. Marr and Willis were with me at first. Rockwell started out long after we did and came right back. Willis got into a fight and returned on account of a jammed mitrailleuse and Marr dropped out a little later on account of motor trouble. Kept on alone for 45 minutes south of St Quentin. Saw 3 Boche machines within their lines but knew there was little use of attacking them. I've been on a good many flights lately which have dwindled down finally to myself and one other or none other at all. Its always the same ones who stay back. Luck wasn't with me to-day as a German machine brought down a French Observation balloon just as I was coming down to land on the field and I never saw him and I broke a cylinder in my motor so the entire motor has to be changed. The motor was rather old so its a good thing after all. Lufberry forced a Boche to land this afternoon back of his lines and Lt de Laage had four combats. He is really fine and has plenty of nerve. Five of us with the Captain are to go to Paris tomorrow to bring out 6 new machines -- 3 Spads and 3 Nieuports. The Captain can't get me a Morane but perhaps I'll get one of these Spads. Rec'd letters from Motozzi, Miss Mooney and Dave Wheeler to-day. Dave sent a little English Tobacco in an envelope. There was lots of aerial activity all along the front to-day. The news about the States is pretty good. Germans tried to blow up a R.R. Tunnel near Pittsburg and one was shot and killed by U.S. Troops guarding it and one soldier was killed. Cuba declared War. from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet, N-124 ************************************* Sunday April 8, 1917 Guided Marr, Willis and Rockwell on a patrol along our lines around St Quentin this afternoon. Rockwell started too late to be with us and Willis got into a fight unknown to Marr and myself, and had to return with a jammed machine gun. Marr dropped out soon afterwards on account of motor trouble so I kept on alone for 45 minutes more. Saw three German machines within their lines but didn't try to tackle them alone. Saw 2 enemy drachens today -- the first I've seen yet while flying. Also found a village on the other side of the Hindenburg line on fire which perhaps shows that the Germans are evacuating that region -- sight at 2 o'clock and was back at 3:30. Time: 1 hour 30 minutes Height max.: 3800 meters from the Flight Log of E.C.C. Genet, N-124 ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 490 *********************