WWI Digest 480 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re[2]: The Pup is flying by "Shelley Goodwin" 2) New/Old DML news. by mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca (Mark K. Nelson) 3) Hannover Cl.III Datfile by "Shelley Goodwin" 4) Re: Hannover Cl.III Datfile by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 5) Women pilots in WWI (forwarded from WWI history list) by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 6) Re[2]: Hannover Cl.III Datfile by "Shelley Goodwin" 7) Re: 1/48th Morane Saulnier Type 'H' by mbittner@juno.com 8) Thursday, 29 March 1917, Raoenel by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 9) Re[2]: Hannover Cl.III Datfile by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 10) Re: 1/48th Morane Saulnier Type 'H' by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 11) Fokker EIII 226\15 by "Stuart L. Malone" 12) Rep : Re[2]: Hannover Cl.III Datfile by Fportier@aol.com 13) Rep : Re: 1/48th Morane Saulnier Type 'H' by Fportier@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 14:47:25 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Re[2]: The Pup is flying Message-ID: <9702288595.AA859589557@mx.Ricochet.net> Did this green/mauve Roland have a yellow 4 on the fin/fuselage? Riordan ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: re: The Pup is flying Author: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu at Internet Date: 3/27/97 12:56 PM At 10:02 AM 3/25/97 -0500, Jack Berlien wrote: > >3) Finally, I would also be interested in what you find out about the Roland - >the paint scheme on the box top doesn't look very interesting but I have no >sources of other options... Jack I did one in green w/ blue underwings and a shark mouth. The scheme came with the decals and looks cool. I also found a camouflaged one in a book. Green and Mauve w/a red band just before the tail structure. HTH Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:19:47 -0700 From: mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca (Mark K. Nelson) To: wwi Subject: New/Old DML news. Message-ID: I would (dis)like to confirm that the 1/48 Sopwith Camel is not in the 1997 DML catalog. In fact the only "new" aircraft appears to be a 1/72 AR234 P night fighter. Thank goodness for Blue Max I suppose. _____________________________________________________________________ Mark (An Employee at Kites & Other Delights in West Edmonton Mall) ------------------------ mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 20:20:59 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Hannover Cl.III Datfile Message-ID: <9702288596.AA859609593@mx.Ricochet.net> Anyone have this one? Are there any color plates of Cl.IIs or the Cl.IIIa (16201/18 ?)Rickenbacker & Reed brought down? I'm looking for non-lozenge camoflage schemes. Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:56:32 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Hannover Cl.III Datfile Message-ID: > > Anyone have this one? Are there any color plates of Cl.IIs or the > Cl.IIIa (16201/18 ?)Rickenbacker & Reed brought down? I'm looking for > non-lozenge camoflage schemes. > > Riordan Lozenges were part of the factory scheme, 5-color fabric for the wings and tail, hand painted lozenges on the top wing, ply covered center section. Also painted lozenges on horizontal and vertical tail surfaces. Some fuselages had large lozenges painted on, others were just spray finished. I'll check the Datafile for the machines you request here. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:38:05 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Women pilots in WWI (forwarded from WWI history list) Message-ID: <333CE2FD.5DCF@host.dmsc.net> Carl J. Bobrow wrote: Taken From: In The Air 03/27/97 #49 During W.W.II Russian women showed the world their metal, on the ground as well as in the air. This tradition, among others established by Russian pilots, first flowered in the skies over the war torn fields on the eastern front during W.W.I. No less than five women found their path upward as military pilots, despite or perhaps because of the anachronistic policies of the Russian military. In 1915 Nedeshda Degtereva had the distinction of being the first woman pilot to be wounded in combat while on a reconnaissance mission over the Austrian front in Galicia. So that their names should not be forgotten I submit the following for your approval; Princess Eugenie M. Shakhovskaya, Lyubov A. Golanchikova, Helen P. Samsonova, Princess Sophie A. Dolgorukaya. ....more info to come later cjb ************************************************************** > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 13:40:21 -0500 (EST) > From: "G. de Syon,History, Albright" > To: ilyam@pipeline.com > Subject: RE: In The Air 03/27/97 #49 > > Greetings all, > the women in WWI aviation discussion was quite intriguing, but I must side > with the sceptics. In the case of Germany, further evidence of > the armed forces' chauvinism can be found in the case of a > Fraulein RIOTTE, who in the spring of 1914 successfuly completed > all the requirements to become a bona fide airship pilot. The issue > then came up at a meeting between government officials and representatives > of the army and of the Zeppelin Co. (led by some fellow named Eckener..:-) > at which it was decided that even though she had played it all by the rules > there was no way that she could be admitted into the "fraternity." > The memo I found in the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz suggests that she > was then offered "honorary" pilot status, but I do not know what her > reaction was (certain events of summer 1914 likely put an end to > any argument). > The same goes for women on the French side. Up to WWI there was an > aeronautical club named the "Stella" where, although most women got > together and > played along within the traditional boundaries of female actyivities > (tea and crumpets; raise money for the valiant male aviators and > the occasional ballooning picnic), several members including Marie > Marvingt and Jane Herveu were daredevils of sorts (easily surpassing > Meli Beese or the already departed Harriet Quimby). I found out > from a couple of letters and newsletters of the time that when war broke > out, while the club ceased activities, Marvingt and possibly Herveu, too, > sought to establish a special air service to transport the wounded. > The French higher-ups would have none of it, and thus this early > air support did not appear till after WWI, with no trace of the women > who had offered their services. > My guess re: the clipping: either it's the usual misinformation > that exists in newspapers throughout that time period (not > necessarily intentional, but still printed...) or the > condition of the body that was burried was such that its > identification could lead to some confusion about its sex. > Guillaume > > G. de Syon > History, ALbright College > Reading, PA 19612-5234 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 22:26:07 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Re[2]: Hannover Cl.III Datfile Message-ID: <9702288596.AA859617016@mx.Ricochet.net> In the Harleyford book theres's a photo of the Cl.II prototype with 3-color camo on all uppersurfaces. I'm thinking maybe the Cl.IIs may not have all had lozenge fabric wings. Thanks, Riordan ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Hannover Cl.III Datfile Author: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu at Internet Date: 3/28/97 8:55 PM > > Anyone have this one? Are there any color plates of Cl.IIs or the > Cl.IIIa (16201/18 ?)Rickenbacker & Reed brought down? I'm looking for > non-lozenge camoflage schemes. > > Riordan Lozenges were part of the factory scheme, 5-color fabric for the wings and tail, hand painted lozenges on the top wing, ply covered center section. Also painted lozenges on horizontal and vertical tail surfaces. Some fuselages had large lozenges painted on, others were just spray finished. I'll check the Datafile for the machines you request here. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 20:25:10 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: 1/48th Morane Saulnier Type 'H' Message-ID: <19970329.073849.16478.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:59:58 -0500 Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) writes: - > resources were the Imperial Russian Air Service book for 1/48 > scale drawings, painting recommendations and photographs, am > sure the new French book will be a big assets here as well. I > also used the Morane Saulnier type L and N and Pfatz E Datafiles > as references the models were very similar in construction. In > addition, Jack Bruce's Volume Five French Fighter of WWI > (copyright 1972) covers this and other MS aircraft and has much > early development information. Could you send more information on this "Jack Bruce's Volume Five French Fighter"? I have never heard of it, and am curious if I need to seek this out (especially since the French tome is coming out). TIA! Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 12:29:28 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Thursday, 29 March 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <333D7BA8.9BA@host.dmsc.net> 969. Very rainy, muggy day so couldn't do any flying. "Doc" Rockwell arrived this morning from his furlough in America since early in January. Came back on the "Rochambeau", landing at Bordeaux last Friday. Hill will be back by the next vessel from New York. Hill comes from Peekskill. Rockwell says that Mrs Hill knows Mother. Perhaps Hill knows some of my Peekskill friends. Wrote Patrina Colis this morning. Recieved a letter from Ralph Cooper. Is still at Winnepeg, Canada. Also a note from Mrs Parker expressing sorrow over poor Mac's death and my wou.lnd. Wrote to my adorable "Star," Jeanette Halstead this afternoon. Rockwell has brought a couple of fine American-made fruitcakes and we rapidly consumed one of them at tea to-day. It was =some= good! Indefinite report that America will send an Army of at 10,000 men over to fight in France in the event of war. The U.S. is planning to give a big loan of money to France also. Two new branches of the Presidential Cabinet are being formed--a secretary of munitions and a Secretary of Aviation. from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet, N-124 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 10:41:47 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re[2]: Hannover Cl.III Datfile Message-ID: In looking over the Datafile again, certainly the prototype and perhaps a few early production Cl-IIs had painted camouflage finishes. These look sprayed, whether these were two or three color schemes is perhaps debatable. You could also look to Roland-built examples of these a/c. There are a couple of photos in the Datafile. The Roland machines appear to be overall light blue (?) painted finish with darker (grey ?) metal cowling panels. As for the Hannover Cl.IIIa brought down by Eddie Rickenbacker and REed Chambers, the serial was 3892/18. It appears to have the standard factory lozenge finish, a combination of fabric covering and painted lozenges, including the larger ones that covered the bulk of the fuselage. There is a photo in the Datafile and I also found a b&w sketch of the machine in the Vol.1 #1 issue of a Polish magazine "Militaria" published about 7 or 8 years ago. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu > >In the Harleyford book theres's a photo of the Cl.II prototype with >3-color camo >on all uppersurfaces. I'm thinking maybe the Cl.IIs may not have all had >lozenge >fabric wings. > >Thanks, > >Riordan > >______________________________ Reply Separator >_________________________________ >Subject: Re: Hannover Cl.III Datfile >Author: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu at Internet >Date: 3/28/97 8:55 PM > > >> >> Anyone have this one? Are there any color plates of Cl.IIs or the >> Cl.IIIa (16201/18 ?)Rickenbacker & Reed brought down? I'm looking for >> non-lozenge camoflage schemes. >> >> Riordan > > > Lozenges were part of the factory scheme, 5-color fabric for the wings >and tail, hand painted lozenges on the top wing, ply covered center >section. Also painted lozenges on horizontal and vertical tail surfaces. >Some fuselages had large lozenges painted on, others were just spray >finished. > > I'll check the Datafile for the machines you request here. > >Charles > >hartc@spot.colorado.edu > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 10:49:32 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: 1/48th Morane Saulnier Type 'H' Message-ID: >On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:59:58 -0500 >Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) writes: > >- > resources were the Imperial Russian Air Service book for 1/48 >> scale drawings, painting recommendations and photographs, am >> sure the new French book will be a big assets here as well. I >> also used the Morane Saulnier type L and N and Pfatz E Datafiles >> as references the models were very similar in construction. In >> addition, Jack Bruce's Volume Five French Fighter of WWI >> (copyright 1972) covers this and other MS aircraft and has much >> early development information. Matt inquires: >Could you send more information on this "Jack Bruce's Volume Five >French Fighter"? I have never heard of it, and am curious if I >need to seek this out (especially since the French tome is coming >out). TIA! What was referred to here was one of a set of 5 small, hardback "pocket" books published by Doubleday in the early 1970's. All were written by Jack Bruce. The 5 volumes covered WW I Fighters begining with British fighters (volumes 1-3) while volumes 4 & 5 covered French fighters. These were perhaps the only summaries published in English on French WW I fighters until the FMP volume appears (soon). These books had a nice selection of photos and three view drawings of most a/c covered. The big drawback was the small format of the books which meant small format of the photos and drawings. As an aside, these are tough books to find. I found my first one, a copy of volume 3, at a used book store in 1978. I found a couple over the next few years until finally finding a stash of these books, including the coveted volume 2, in 1992. So 14 years to acquire a complete set of these volumes might be a little much. It pays to look in every nook and cranny for used books, treasures are found in the most unexpected places. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 12:02:38 +0000 From: "Stuart L. Malone" To: wwi Subject: Fokker EIII 226\15 Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970329120236.00686a70@swbell.net> I started a long nasty thread a while back when I asked the group if there had ever been a 'silver' Fokker EIII. I was asking for a friend who was building an RC version. This friend gave me the specific aircraft: Fokker EIII 226\15. He believes this particular Fokker is located in a museum somewhere in the world. He wanted to know the paint scheme of the 'craft and in what state of repair or disrepair it is in today, assuming it is still around. Any information on the service career of 226/15 would be invaluable if possible. TIA. Zatim Nashledanou, Stuart L. Malone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 15:38:28 -0500 (EST) From: Fportier@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Rep : Re[2]: Hannover Cl.III Datfile Message-ID: <970329153827_-502280021@emout15.mail.aol.com> If you want a Hannover without lozenges why not try a post-war Polish aircraft? There seems to have been an all-white (or pale coloured) example with a handsome red eagle motif on the fuselage. Happy Easter to all the memebers of the list! Francois ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 15:38:31 -0500 (EST) From: Fportier@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Rep : Re: 1/48th Morane Saulnier Type 'H' Message-ID: <970329153831_383010860@emout01.mail.aol.com> The Bruce book has long been out of print and I was lucky after many months to get one from a second-hand bookshop in England. Vols 1-3 covered British fighters, vols 4-5 French tyypes. Vol 6 never appeared so the Nieuport and Spad types were never covered. These are small books of the same format as the William Green books covering WW2 aircraft. I must say they are outstanding little books and the quality of information takes some beating even after all these years. Probably the best you can get on British and French pursuit types. Among my favourites are Pemberton-Billing anti-zeppelin cannon-armed quadruplanes... But I'm getting carried away. Going price for a volume is about #10 (GBP). I'm NOT selling mine!!! Happy Easter to all memebers of the list. Francois ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 480 *********************