WWI Digest 475 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Re[6]: Lt. Victor Hafner's D.V 5350/17 (was Pascha Albat by "Erik" 2) More re: rumors of German women pilots in WW I by Peter Kilduff 3) Re: More re: rumors of German women pilots in WW I by Joellyn Auklandus 4) Re: More re: rumors of German women pilots in WW I by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 5) Rep : Off Topic but... Advice on upgrading to Wife 1.0 by Fportier@aol.com 6) Gotha UWD patterns by Fportier@aol.com 7) Re: More re: rumors of German women pilots in WW I by "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." 8) Need help Pfalz D. XII Disaster by phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) 9) Re: Button High Dudgeon by "huggins@onramp.net" 10) Re: Need help Pfalz D. XII Disaster by vprice@world.net (Vincent Price) 11) Still searching for German women pilots in WW I by Peter Kilduff 12) Re: Button High Dudgeon by mbittner@juno.com 13) Thursday, 22 March 1917, Raoenel by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 14) Friday, 23 March 1917, Raoenel by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 15) More thoughts about the pin by mbittner@juno.com 16) Contest announcement by mbittner@juno.com 17) New hand - old fingers by Tom Werner Hansen 18) RE: Button High Dudgeon by "William B. Bacon, Jr." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:05:29 +0000 From: "Erik" To: wwi Subject: Re: Re[6]: Lt. Victor Hafner's D.V 5350/17 (was Pascha Albat Message-ID: <199703221721.JAA19083@emerald.oz.net> On 22 Mar 97, Rob rojo1@concentric.net heroically postulated: > > What about green/red-brown wings? Was this scheme used on some Alb. > > D.IIIs? > I doubt it. That went out with the D.II as near as I know > (Charles?). Now, if some of these Turkatroses were Austro-hungarian > Oeffags, they might well have had green/brown wings. > Actually, many of the early Albatros D.III fighters did carry the two-color, Red-Brown/Olive scheme. In fact, both Rimell and I concur that probably all of the first batch (500 machines) of D.IIIs did so. Which reminds me, Rob-- my Albatros color article is ready for Chandelle, if you're still interested. Just let me know off-list. Cheers, Erik ........................................................................ "Mr.Anchovy, perhaps you could move *towards* 'Lion Taming' via Banking, or even Insurance?..." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 12:09:51 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Kilduff To: wwi-l@raven.CC.UKANS.EDU Subject: More re: rumors of German women pilots in WW I Message-ID: <970322120951.20618c44@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> Bradley Omanson writes re: >> >**************************** >> >this from the CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE, 12 Sept 18: >> > >> >WITH THE AMERICAN ARMY IN FRANCE, Sept. 11-- >> >[By the Associated Press]: That the Germans are using women as military >> >aviators is indicated in a report that in a machine recently brought down >> >by the Americans the pilot, who was killed, was a woman. >> > The captain of a company of the One Hundred and Sixty-seventy Infantry >> >says the pilot of a German plane brought down near Sergy Aug. 28 by >> >Lieut. Miller Thompson of the American air force was a woman. >> > The discovery of the sex of the aviator was made, the captain says, >> >when his men buried the enmy pilot and her observer. >> > >> >********************************** >> >> According to the most complete German aviation necrology -- _Verlustliste der >> deutschen Luftstreitkraefte im Weltkriege_ compiled by Major a.D. Wilhelm >> Zickerick (1930) -- only one German two-seater loss occurred that day. While >> it was within a broad area in which U.S. troops were deployed, the downed >> aircraft was crewed by two male aviators: Gefreiter [Private] Reinhold >> Bergfeld, age 21, and Leutnant der Reserve [2/Lt Reserves] Robert Weidler, >> age 22, who were brought down near Nesle. They had been on an artillery- >> spotting (ranging big guns) mission as members of Flieger-Abteilung (A) 245. >> As was so often the case, the two-seater pilot was an enlisted man and the >> observer a commissioned officer. Their names do not appear on existing >> German burial records, so they may have been buried by AEF troops in the >> area. >> >> Several facts fit the scenario described (although it would be helpful to know >> whether the U.S. 167th Infantry [Regiment?] was deployed reasonably close to >> Nesle). But it is unlikely that the pilot, Gefreiter Reinhold Bergfeld, was >> a woman; given the close contact of the time and the fact that aviation >> personnel had a more "comfortable" existence (e.g., showering and bathing >> facilities) than ground troops, it is hard to imagine a woman "sneaking" into >> the German Air Force [Luftstreitkraefte]. >> >> This account sure sounds like "urban legend" material to me. >> >> Peter Kilduff > >Peter, > >The 167th Regt of the 42nd Div was near Nesle, Sergy & the Foret de Nesle > around Aug 2nd. Do you show any German two-seaters downed near there on >that date, give or take a day? > ================= Bradley, How did we go from 28 August to 2 August? If you want a day either side of 28 August (and on that part of the German 2. Armee Front), on 27 August, a German pilot was killed near Ennemain. He was Gefreiter Xaver Guggenberger, age 28. His unit is not known and there is no corresponding observer loss. Nothing even close on 29 August. On 1 August, the German air casualties occurred up by Cambrai, nothing close on 2 August. Closest for 3 August is the loss of Vizefeldwebel [Sergeant Major] Karl Beckhausen, age 21, and his observer, Oberleutnant (1/Lt) Johannes Philipp, age 27, both KIA at Hamel sur Ancre in an aircraft of Flieger-Abteilung (A) 268. German burial records (always better for officers than for enlisted personnel) show that Obltn. Philipp's body was recovered and send to Berlin for a formal funeral. So, unless there is some proof that Gefr. Karl Beckhausen was really "Karla," I think the story about a German woman pilot is not accurate. To say nothing of the fact that such an event -- if true -- would have made bigger headlines and even notice in the German press (which was not so tightly controlled as it was during WW II). Peter Kilduff ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 12:33:58 -0500 From: Joellyn Auklandus To: wwi-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu Cc: wwi-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu, wwi Subject: Re: More re: rumors of German women pilots in WW I Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970322173358.0068b23c@pop.mindspring.com> >So, unless there is some proof that Gefr. Karl Beckhausen was really "Karla," >I think the story about a German woman pilot is not accurate. To say nothing >of the fact that such an event -- if true -- would have made bigger headlines >and even notice in the German press (which was not so tightly controlled as >it was during WW II). If I may put in my two pfennigs...while the French and Russians and Americans may have allowed women to fly in "nonessential" ways during the war years (Helene Dutrieu comes to mind for the French, and I know there are others who flew for Russia and the US on home turf, ferrying planes and such), the Germans were highly disapproving of women flyers in general, their only real exception of note being Melli Beese. When Beese went for her pilot's license in 1911-12, the male pilots at the field went so far as to dump sugar in her engine to try and scuttle her chances...though she did finally get her license and open her training school with her husband, a French-born fellow named Boutard, once the war broke out she was forbidden to fly, as she had married a Frenchman and could therefore no longer be trusted. (Interestingly, she had trained some of the early aces, most notably Wilhelm Frankl, an early PLM winner and one of the few Jews who gained any rank and fame in the German Air Service.) The Deutsches Museum in Munich did a grand exhibition on Melli Beese a couple of years ago. I have a very thick and interesting catalog -- completely auf Deutsch, unfortunately! -- if someone wants more information on her. Joellyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:40:40 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: More re: rumors of German women pilots in WW I Message-ID: <33346DF8.5A5D@host.dmsc.net> Peter Kilduff wrote: > > Bradley Omanson writes re: > > >> >**************************** > >> >this from the CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE, 12 Sept 18: > >> > > >> >WITH THE AMERICAN ARMY IN FRANCE, Sept. 11-- > >> >[By the Associated Press]: That the Germans are using women as military > >> >aviators is indicated in a report that in a machine recently brought down > >> >by the Americans the pilot, who was killed, was a woman. > >> > The captain of a company of the One Hundred and Sixty-seventy Infantry > >> >says the pilot of a German plane brought down near Sergy Aug. 28 by > >> >Lieut. Miller Thompson of the American air force was a woman. > >> > The discovery of the sex of the aviator was made, the captain says, > >> >when his men buried the enmy pilot and her observer. > >> > > >> >********************************** > >> > >> According to the most complete German aviation necrology -- _Verlustliste der > >> deutschen Luftstreitkraefte im Weltkriege_ compiled by Major a.D. Wilhelm > >> Zickerick (1930) -- only one German two-seater loss occurred that day. While > >> it was within a broad area in which U.S. troops were deployed, the downed > >> aircraft was crewed by two male aviators: Gefreiter [Private] Reinhold > >> Bergfeld, age 21, and Leutnant der Reserve [2/Lt Reserves] Robert Weidler, > >> age 22, who were brought down near Nesle. They had been on an artillery- > >> spotting (ranging big guns) mission as members of Flieger-Abteilung (A) 245. > >> As was so often the case, the two-seater pilot was an enlisted man and the > >> observer a commissioned officer. Their names do not appear on existing > >> German burial records, so they may have been buried by AEF troops in the > >> area. > >> > >> Several facts fit the scenario described (although it would be helpful to know > >> whether the U.S. 167th Infantry [Regiment?] was deployed reasonably close to > >> Nesle). But it is unlikely that the pilot, Gefreiter Reinhold Bergfeld, was > >> a woman; given the close contact of the time and the fact that aviation > >> personnel had a more "comfortable" existence (e.g., showering and bathing > >> facilities) than ground troops, it is hard to imagine a woman "sneaking" into > >> the German Air Force [Luftstreitkraefte]. > >> > >> This account sure sounds like "urban legend" material to me. > >> > >> Peter Kilduff > > > >Peter, > > > >The 167th Regt of the 42nd Div was near Nesle, Sergy & the Foret de Nesle > > around Aug 2nd. Do you show any German two-seaters downed near there on > >that date, give or take a day? > > > ================= > > Bradley, > > How did we go from 28 August to 2 August? If you want a day either side of 28 > August (and on that part of the German 2. Armee Front), on 27 August, a German > pilot was killed near Ennemain. He was Gefreiter Xaver Guggenberger, age 28. > His unit is not known and there is no corresponding observer loss. Nothing > even close on 29 August. > > On 1 August, the German air casualties occurred up by Cambrai, nothing close on > 2 August. Closest for 3 August is the loss of Vizefeldwebel [Sergeant Major] > Karl Beckhausen, age 21, and his observer, Oberleutnant (1/Lt) Johannes > Philipp, age 27, both KIA at Hamel sur Ancre in an aircraft of > Flieger-Abteilung (A) 268. German burial records (always better for officers > than for enlisted personnel) show that Obltn. Philipp's body was recovered and > send to Berlin for a formal funeral. > > So, unless there is some proof that Gefr. Karl Beckhausen was really "Karla," > I think the story about a German woman pilot is not accurate. To say nothing > of the fact that such an event -- if true -- would have made bigger headlines > and even notice in the German press (which was not so tightly controlled as > it was during WW II). > > Peter Kilduff Peter, We went to 2 Aug because that was only time the 167th was near Sergy. So the reporter might have been mistaken about the date. The point is, the 167th was, in fact, near Sergy as the article said. To settle this question, the first thing to do is to track down the source of the story, an unnamed captain of the 167th. Does anyone have access to records of the 167th?-- field messages, regimental diaries, etc? I don't, I'm afraid. Anyway, this is the place to begin the investigation-- not from the German side-- but with the original report-- if there is one-- made by the 167th. If none exists, then it is reasonable to suppose it is a hoax. But the fact that the 167th was where the article said it was, near Sergy-- even though the date was off-- suggests to me that the tale has some grounding in an actual event. The question at this point is, what exactly was that event? Bradley ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 14:56:06 -0500 (EST) From: Fportier@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Rep : Off Topic but... Advice on upgrading to Wife 1.0 Message-ID: <970322145605_-1404385857@emout08.mail.aol.com> Very funny. I think I'll use this for a joke on All fools' Day, trying to keep a straight face. Francois ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:20:55 -0500 (EST) From: Fportier@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Gotha UWD patterns Message-ID: <970322152054_-1772687271@emout04.mail.aol.com> Dear Subscribers, In an earlier message I referred to ' Veterans 72 ' resin kits and explained that due to poor health (heartstroke) the man in charge, Francois Lespes, had given up. I (gently) pestered him until he would return the last "master" I sent him, the Gotha UWD, and finally I got it back. The Gotha UWD is the seaplane variant of the Gotha Ursinus G1, a rather spectacular twin engined biplane with the same layout as the Handley-Page Heyford (if that's any help). The patterns made by Martin Digmayer of the Czech Republic have been carved from white plasic and are designed for short run production using resin (to which I am allergic in the "fusion" stage), with fully detailed wing ribs and small parts. Detailed 1/72 plans provided. I'm hoping to sell the lot for $200. I'll be asking round in France among people I know, possibly "Replica", but if anybody in this group is interested let me know. Best regards, Francois ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:48:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Fernando E. Lamas, M.D." To: wwi Subject: Re: More re: rumors of German women pilots in WW I Message-ID: <199703222148.NAA21549@olympus.net> >Anyway, this is the place to begin the investigation-- not from the >German side-- but with the original report-- if there is one-- made by >the 167th. That still won't solve the mystery. Maybe the the men of the 167th had lived in the trenches for so long that they forgot what women looked liked. ;^) Fernando ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 16:15:03 -0600 From: phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) To: "post wwi" Subject: Need help Pfalz D. XII Disaster Message-ID: <19970322222809.AAA8967@default> Does anyone have the Email address of Christopher Gannon from Blue Max? My Pfalz D.XII wing came with a very warped upper wing. When I heated it to straighten it the plastic shrunk along the leading and trailing edge. I need to find out how to purchase a replacement. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Paul Howard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:24:57 -0600 (CST) From: "huggins@onramp.net" To: wwi Subject: Re: Button High Dudgeon Message-ID: >In our last episode, Rob was writing: > >>The artist replies: >> >>Uh, guys: I am doing the art, hence the plug for my page, Chandelle. >>Consider >>this my fee (I'm cheap too--try pricing this kind of work sometime). >>I doubt anyone would protest if Squadron or Blue Rider had offered >>to do the art for free provided its logo was there. But if I am wrong and >>if the list would rather use something else in the name of "fairness," >>fine. Get a consensus, and I'll withdraw my entry. Otherwise the >>text stays as is. > >The "fee" is fair - stick to your guns. Anyone doesn't like it, let >THEM come up with alternate artwork! (I was kinda playing around >with something showing Cindy Crawford at the controls of a Dr. I >but it didn't work out half as neat as yours did - still, I thought >my concept more promising!) :-) > >Cheers, Gentlemen, Time is growing short. Did my proposal make it to anyone? I still do not have any kind of estimate on the number of buttons that might be needed. I have the time now, but as May, June and July contest dates approach, my time will be cut drastically. As this is a friendly group, and a lot of things are passed amoung each of us, I still feel that anything other than the url for the group and possibly the Al's WWI Home page should be the only plug on the badges. Any thing else would kind of be like one of us wearing a button that said I support XYZ,s orginization/business only and the other members who subscribe to the list and have simular orginizations/business are secondary. I am/was willing to foot the cost of the printing, buttons and the manufacturing of same for the group, without a plug for anything except the group. Why would I want to do this and plug someone's site instead of the one I am associated with. John Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:49:13 +1100 (EST) From: vprice@world.net (Vincent Price) To: wwi Subject: Re: Need help Pfalz D. XII Disaster Message-ID: <199703230149.MAA29089@world.net> As far as I know Chris is not on the net. I'd call him direct on +44 0 1227 277569. I seem to remember someone else from the list having a parts problem with a Pegasus/Blue Max kit and being very satisfied with the response. Regards Vincent >Does anyone have the Email address of Christopher Gannon from Blue Max? >My Pfalz D.XII wing came with a very warped upper wing. When I heated it >to straighten it the plastic shrunk along the leading and trailing edge. I >need to find out how to purchase a replacement. Any help would be greatly >appreciated. > >Thanks, >Paul Howard > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- GroupWare Internet: vprice@sydney2.world.net Level 12, Phone: +61 3 9606 0607 469 La Trobe Street Fax: +61 3 9606 0604 Melbourne, Vic., 3000 Mobile: +61 041 534 2166 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 7:17:37 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Kilduff To: wwi-l@raven.CC.UKANS.EDU Subject: Still searching for German women pilots in WW I Message-ID: <970323071737.20613c6c@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> In response to Bradley Omanson: >We went to 2 Aug because that was only time the 167th was near Sergy. So >the reporter might have been mistaken about the date. The point is, the >167th was, in fact, near Sergy as the article said. To settle this >question, the first thing to do is to track down the source of the story, >an unnamed captain of the 167th. Does anyone have access to records of >the 167th?-- field messages, regimental diaries, etc? I don't, I'm >afraid. > >Anyway, this is the place to begin the investigation-- not from the >German side-- but with the original report-- if there is one-- made by >the 167th. If none exists, then it is reasonable to suppose it is a >hoax. But the fact that the 167th was where the article said it was, >near Sergy-- even though the date was off-- suggests to me that the tale >has some grounding in an actual event. The question at this point is, >what exactly was that event? ================== Bradley, This assumes there was an "event." I doubt it. Joellyn Auklandus' response makes the most sense to me: i.e., given the social "position" of women in Wilhelmine Germany, it is highly unlikely that the rootin' tootin' Teutons would have allowed women to fly anywhere near the battlefront and certainly not *with* combat units. Someone in an earlier message in this thread pointed out that the alleged American pilot involved does not show up on any USAS rosters of WW I. That's a rather telling comment on the rest of the story. To be sure, your best bet is to dig up the daily reports for the 167th Inf.Reg. If nothing else, they may offer a clue as to how this story got started. Could have been as simple as examining the corpses and seeing a baby-faced man. Perhaps someone said: "Gad, he looks like a girl." Rumor distortion being what it is, by the time the story is told fifth-hand, the dead German pilot "was" female -- and ten people would swear to it. I hope you find the pertinent American records so we see how this "event" got twisted around. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:52:11 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Button High Dudgeon Message-ID: <19970323.085212.13542.1.mbittner@juno.com> On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:28:54 -0500 "huggins@onramp.net" writes: > Time is growing short. Did my proposal make it to anyone? I > still do not have any kind of estimate on the number of buttons > that might be needed. Well, although people have been giving me counts for Rob's pin, the count stands at 18 pins. However, I have only received counts from eight people, myself included. > I have the time now, but as May, June and July contest dates > approach, my time will be cut drastically. > As this is a friendly group, and a lot of things are passed > amoung each of us, I still feel that anything other than the url > for the group and possibly the Al's WWI Home page should be the > only plug on the badges. Any thing else would kind of be like > one of us wearing a button that said I support XYZ,s > orginization/business only and the other members who subscribe > to the list and have simular orginizations/business are > secondary. When Rob first mentioned this - and this is in no way against Rob - I had a problem with him putting his own URL on it. When r.m.s. basically did the same thing with their stickers - and Lone Star printed them up - Lone Star put they're name on it, along with something else (address? url?). I kind of understood why they did it, but still. I now have a problem with Rob putting Chandelle's URL on it. Why not stick Roll Models URL on it? Or the URL for the model trading page? Sure, I understand that since Rob designed the button, that he would put his on it, but still. Since John is willing to foot the cost for everything, and willing to do so for "free", why not go with John's button? John, how about submitting your design to Al so he can put it on the web page? If I remember correctly, there were three design ideas from people; John's, Rob's, and Al's (the Camel from the web page). So far we have only seen Rob's, and everybody has "voted" on this one only. And Rob, please don't be upset at me. I can see where you're coming from, but when it comes right down to it, people can get to Chandelle from Al's page, since he has a link to it. > I am/was willing to foot the cost of the printing, buttons and > the manufacturing of same for the group, without a plug for > anything except the group. Why would I want to do this and plug > someone's site instead of the one I am associated with. I say let's at least *see* John's idea, and decide again, especially since John is willing to foot the cost for *everything*, and Rob's idea was just the design. I've probably made enemies (when haven't I?), but let's give John the benefit of the doubt, if nothing else. The cheapskate in me wants to go with John; however, the "democrat" in me says let's have a true vote, and not one decided because it's the only one available. I sure hope that all made sense. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:44:01 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Thursday, 22 March 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <333579F1.E7@host.dmsc.net> 962. Big French success reported to-night towards St Quentin. Internal riots also reported in Berlin. Fair in morning but clouded up heavily and snow fell quite a number of times during the afternoon. Went out with Lieut de Laage, Lovell, and Willis from 7 to 8:30 for trip along the lines around Ham and St Simon. Very cold and my machine gun got jammed so I came back. The others followed soon after. Saw no German machines. Willis got his face badly frozen. Volunteered to go out with a patrol at 11:30. Patrol consisted of 2 Spads (the Captain and Hoskier) and 5 of us with Nieuports. On account of the heavy thick clouds we got pretty well separated along the lines. Was with Haviland and Hinkle until my oil clutch began to freeze while we were at 3000 metres where the cold was very severe and then went down over Ham alone, made some observations, and came back thru snow and sleet arriving at 1:05. Haviland and Hinkle forced to land near Compeigne for lack of gasoline. Bigelow back before me. Hoskier landed at Mondider because of motor trouble. Parsons had to land at an English aviation field north of the Somme and got back late in the afternoon, and the Captain had to land east of Amiens on account of motor trouble. We had a patrol to make at 5:15 this afternoon consisting of Thaw, Johnson, Lovell and myself. We got all ready to leave but were ordered back at the last minute on account of a big wind storm approaching. It would have made my third flight to-day--a record for me. Was quite satisfied to remain on the ground tho on account of the bad weather. Wrote to Major Parker this morning about "Mac" not having been heard from up to to-day. Soubiran went to Paris this afternoon so I gave him the letter to mail there. Used an hour or so before dinner to write to Ralph Cooper and Miss Mooney. Mis Mooney, as my motherly marraine will be glad to learn that I've won a citation. No more news to-day about MacConnell. Rumor got to Paris yesterday that he was killed and I, wounded by a bullet in my shoulder, was lying between life and death in the Amer. Ambulance at Nuilly. Don't mind that report except that it will probably get to New York papers and cause a lot of anxiety to Mother and Rivers and the rest. from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet ***************************************** Thursday, March 22, 1917 Out on reconnoitering trip along lines between Nesle and La Fere with Lt de Laage, Lovell and Willis from 7 o'clock to 8:30. After being out quite awhile I found my machine gun blocked and was unable to get [it] going so turned around and came back. Lovell followed me and Lt de Laage and Willis came in soon after. Quite cloudy and extremely cold. Got my machine covered white with frost while coming down from 3,000 meters to come back. Saw no enemy avions and no activity on the front. Time: 1 hour 30 minutes Height 3000 meters ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thursday, March 22, 1917 Volunteered to go out with the patrol going out at 11:30 for reconnaisance along our line between Nesle and La Fere. German attack expected between St Simon and LaFere. Patrol consisted of Captain Thenault and Hoskier in Spads, and Haviland, Hinkle, Bigelow, Parsons and myself in Nieuports. Clouds were very dense and the group got pretty well separated. Kept with Haviland and Hinkle until my face froze and then went down to a lower altitude to warm up over Ham and then went up to find the rest and couldn't find them so went back to camp. Flew back very low on account of clouds, was caught in two snow flurries and had a rough voyage. Hoskier was obliged to land with his Spad at Mondidier and Haviland and Hinkle got down to Compeigne and ran out of gasoline so landed there to replenish. Time: 1 hour 35 minutes Height maximum 3000 meters from the Flight Log of E.C.C. Genet, N-124 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:58:42 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Friday, 23 March 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <33357D62.6AC1@host.dmsc.net> 963. Windy and cloudy. Escadrille on service both a.m. and p.m. but none went out until noon. Had to go then on account of expected German attack towards St Quentin. Report came in from Regiment of French cavalry that they saw the fight MacConnell and I had on Monday morning and that Mac, instead of being attacked by one Boche machine, was attacked by two and was brought down towards St Quentin and the chances are 9 [out of] 10 that he is dead and not a prisoner. Had I seen all enemy machines I certainly would have stayed close beside Mac and not gone up to attack the nearest but I only saw two and both were coming down towards Mac. The third must have been further back and hidden in the heavy mist. Wrote to Helen Harper late this morning and to Major Parker about MacConnell. Went out with Hoskier and Hinkle at 5 o'clock this afternoon for a short trip along our lines around Ham and St Simon. Hinkle turned back soon after we started. Strong northeast wind was blowing a very thick mist and we had to fly very low to find our way at all and I had difficulty in following Hoskier at all. Back at 6 o'clock after being unable to make any adequate observations. Wrote to Paul Rockwell telling him the news about poor Mac. Mrs Weeks certainly will grieve when she learns of it. Paul will write to her about it as she is still in the States. All America seems bent on declaring war on Germany very soon. Pres. Wilson has called Congress to session at an early date and will undoubtedly take strong measures. U.S. troops may be sent over to fight on French or Belgian soil and U.S. warships will probably have a naval base in one or more of the Allied Ports over here. from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet ********************************************* Friday, March 23, 1917 Went out at 5 this afternoon on reconaissance patrol along the lines around St Semain, Ham and east to the Oise with Hoskier and Hinkle. Hinkle turned back just after we started so Hoskier and I went on together. Had to keep around 1000 meters to see the ground at all and could only see that for a very short distance ahead on account of an extremely thick mist driving down from the northeast with a sixty mile [per hour] gale. I going second had to keep my eyes constantly on Hoskier's avion to keep from losing him entirely. Only stayed out long enough to go along the lines to St Simon. Came back very quickly with the wind behind us. Arrived at 6 o'clock and made a mightly bad landing on account of the darkness coming on. Time: 1 hour Height Max. 1600 meters from the Flight Log of E.C.C. Genet, N-124 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:00:35 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: More thoughts about the pin Message-ID: <19970323.090729.13542.2.mbittner@juno.com> Well, I originally said that 18 buttons were wanted. That's still true. However, I also believe that there should be a percentage made over and above that number, just in case someone decides at a later date they want one, as well as for the new members we get with our new pin. ;-) I also believe that there are more list members truly wanting a pin. My offer still stands, to help John (or whomever) with the load: email me direct (as to avoid list bandwidth problems) with the number of pins you want. Again, my email address is: mbittner@juno.com I also believe that once John (or whomever) has his image, that it should be a .jpg, or whatever, so we can print off these images onto card stock, or self adhesive labels to make "cheap" pins, and affix them everywhere (I for one want to affix ones to our contest flyers). Assuming I haven't pissed everyone off, please let me know (and John, as well) how the list wants to handle this. Remember that Rob's idea (a good one, don't get me wrong) was just for the image; John is willing to print up and make the pins. Al also had an idea for the image, but I'm not sure how that one has gone. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:07:29 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Contest announcement Message-ID: <19970323.090729.13542.3.mbittner@juno.com> Well, I thought long and hard about it, and would like to announce the following. On 4 October, IPMS/Ft. Crook is putting on our LOCon (which, although many in the club *thinks* it stands for Local Contest, but when given an alternate, I like Lincoln-Omaha Contest ;-)). The theme for the contest is Red October: anything Russian built or used; or anything all red. However, although it means I can't compete ;-), I would like to announce a special award I'm sponsoring: Best WW1 Model. Unlike Steve Hustad's award at the annual KC-Con - and unlike the national Mike Fritz award - this one covers all WW1 models, and not just aircraft. Since I too am a "cross modeler" (which I am receiving treatment for, thank you very much) I see the importance of an award that allows for everything, and not just aircraft. So, here's a challenge to all the list members (assuming I haven't been unsubscribed for my last comments about the pin): attend our contest, and try to win this award. I'm still working on a design idea, but I do have one in mind (more on that after I figure it out). Al, if you would like to put this on the web page, that would be great. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:10:08 +0100 (MET) From: Tom Werner Hansen To: wwi Subject: New hand - old fingers Message-ID: <199703231510.QAA06439@mail1.sn.no> After having been a passive subscriber to wwi list for a while, I thought it about time to show my hand and introduce myself. I've been away from plastic modelling for a number of years, mainly doing ship and boat models in the meantime, as well as trying to get computer literate to stay on top of my job. Stumbling on your list, it inspired me to dig out some of my old kit boxes that have been lying all forlorn in the garage for years, to see what I could find. Among the boxes I found there, was a box of mixed ESCI 1/72 kits, among them the Nieuport 17 that has had a certain notoriety in the list lately (and there's no need to plug the series of articles on how to do it right:( Matt Bittner's: "Correcting/Modifying ESCI/Revell's Nieuport 17) , I've already downloaded them!) BTW, does anybody know how I could get hold of some the articles and drawings referred to , like the scale drawings in Nieuport Fighters, Vol. 1, Windsock International, Vol. 7 No. 1, the Nieuport Fighters Datafile Special, Vol. 1. Windsock Vol.5 No.3 and No. 4 Best of Windsock, Vol. 1 I doubt the vaults of my local library here in Fredrikstad, Norway will have them). Which leads me to my other question: has anybody been doing the rest of them lately, (or at least within living memory) and can tell me about them. I'm thinking about accuracy problems and suchlike. (The kits in the box are : the Nieuport, a SPAD, a Sopwith Camel, a Fokker DVII, an S.E.5A and an Albatros D III) Also, why is everybody throwing out the ESCI decals, aren't they accurate enough, or is there a problem with the film/adhesive? In order to limber up my fingers, and getting used to planes with pieces of string attached, I also uncovered a Monogram Goshawk that I thought I'd spend a little time on. Anybody know anything about that one as well? I'm so far sitting on the fence in the battle of the scales, supply problems and display space considerations have forced me into the smaller scale, but I'm in no way dogmatic about it. I will be going to the US in the summer, so I'll be looking for a something balloonish. I'll probably be needing some pointers before then, but I'll get back to that. Easter greeting from Tom -- - Tom Werner Hansen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:18:08 -0600 From: "William B. Bacon, Jr." To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: Button High Dudgeon Message-ID: <01BC376B.2F140200@ESPRESSO.NETJAVA.NET> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC376B.2F1BA320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matt, Both parties, as is the usual case, have valid points. I agree that Rob = has a valid point and I appreciate the effort he put into his design. I = do, however, note that John's offer is without "strings". Let's see = what the other options are. Above all, we cannot afford to have this = cause animosity among the group. I noted in the latest IPMS Journal that you had added us to the IPMS web = page. Thanks. Another item of note is that the NOREASTCON 26, IPMS/USA Region 1 = Convention and Contest will hav as its Contest Theme: World War 1. It = appears that we are not alone. Cheers, Bill Bill Bacon wbacon@netjava.net ---------- From: mbittner@juno.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 1997 8:53 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Button High Dudgeon On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:28:54 -0500 "huggins@onramp.net" writes: > Time is growing short. Did my proposal make it to anyone? I > still do not have any kind of estimate on the number of buttons > that might be needed. Well, although people have been giving me counts for Rob's pin, the count stands at 18 pins. However, I have only received counts from eight people, myself included. > I have the time now, but as May, June and July contest dates > approach, my time will be cut drastically. > As this is a friendly group, and a lot of things are passed > amoung each of us, I still feel that anything other than the url > for the group and possibly the Al's WWI Home page should be the > only plug on the badges. Any thing else would kind of be like > one of us wearing a button that said I support XYZ,s > orginization/business only and the other members who subscribe > to the list and have simular orginizations/business are > secondary. When Rob first mentioned this - and this is in no way against Rob - I had a problem with him putting his own URL on it. When r.m.s. basically did the same thing with their stickers - and Lone Star printed them up - Lone Star put they're name on it, along with something else (address? url?). I kind of understood why they did it, but still. I now have a problem with Rob putting Chandelle's URL on it. Why not stick Roll Models URL on it? Or the URL for the model trading page? Sure, I understand that since Rob designed the button, that he would put his on it, but still. Since John is willing to foot the cost for everything, and willing to do so for "free", why not go with John's button? John, how about submitting your design to Al so he can put it on the web page? If I remember correctly, there were three design ideas from people; John's, Rob's, and Al's (the Camel from the web page). So far we have only seen Rob's, and everybody has "voted" on this one only. And Rob, please don't be upset at me. I can see where you're coming from, but when it comes right down to it, people can get to Chandelle from Al's page, since he has a link to it. > I am/was willing to foot the cost of the printing, buttons and > the manufacturing of same for the group, without a plug for > anything except the group. Why would I want to do this and plug > someone's site instead of the one I am associated with. I say let's at least *see* John's idea, and decide again, especially since John is willing to foot the cost for *everything*, and Rob's idea was just the design. I've probably made enemies (when haven't I?), but let's give John the benefit of the doubt, if nothing else. The cheapskate in me wants to go with John; however, the "democrat" in me says let's have a true vote, and not one decided because it's the only one available. I sure hope that all made sense. 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WWI Digest 475 *********************