WWI Digest 474 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: one and only? by GRBroman@aol.com 2) Re: Latest FSM by GRBroman@aol.com 3) Re: Latest FSM by "Erik" 4) Re: one and only? by Sandy Adam 5) Re: Latest from Rosemont by Alberto Rada 6) Wednesday, 21 March 1917, Raoenel by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 7) Re: FSM Readers Gallery by "Bill Ciciora" 8) Re: Latest from Rosemont by mbittner@juno.com 9) Collective photo mailing by mbittner@juno.com 10) Re[6]: Lt. Victor Hafner's D.V 5350/17 (was Pascha Albat by "Shelley Goodwin" 11) Re: one and only? by The Shannons 12) Re: Collective photo mailing by NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) 13) Female German pilot downed by Yank flier by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 14) Re: Latest FSM by "Rob " 15) Re: one and only? by "Rob " 16) Re: Re[6]: Lt. Victor Hafner's D.V 5350/17 (was Pascha Albat by "Rob " 17) Re: Female German pilot downed by Yank flier by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 18) New Items by "Leonard Endy" 19) German women pilots in WW I? by Peter Kilduff 20) Re: German women pilots in WW I? by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:42:51 -0500 (EST) From: GRBroman@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: one and only? Message-ID: <970321114245_606183747@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-20 20:52:09 EST, you write: << Cheers y'all! ______ | | | | ______| |~~~~~) \_ ( \__ } \_ _( | _/ \_ _( )/ >> Is this a map of Baja Oklahoma? x]:) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:43:11 -0500 (EST) From: GRBroman@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Latest FSM Message-ID: <970321114309_1410080961@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-21 08:22:11 EST, you write: << One thing that's been sorely lacking in FSM is the WW1 content, specifically in the Reader's Gallery. I think we - as in the collective list - should send photo's into the Reader's Gallery *all at once*. That way we may be able to get an entire Reader's Gallery devoted to the list, and it will be free publicity for us - and Al. What do you think? If people are willing, I'm willing to be the hub for this, as well. Once I get all the photo's from those who want to participate, I'll ship them off enmasse. >> uh, uh uh, I wanna play!! :) I have a HP 0400, an Emhar Tadpole and I can talk Bob Horton, resident WW I artillery scratchbuilding guru into a few photos. BTW, for those of you anywhere near Davenport, Iowa. (yes, I know, nothing is near Davenport, Iowa) We will be hosting a seminar on WW I artillery at the Rock Island Arsenal Museum on 12 April. Last August we had none other that Greg VanWyngarden come and give a seminar. Yes, WW I modelling is alive and well in the Quad Cities :) Glen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:28:46 +0000 From: "Erik" To: wwi Subject: Re: Latest FSM Message-ID: <199703211744.JAA26072@emerald.oz.net> On 21 Mar 97, mbittner@juno.com heroically postulated: > One thing that's been sorely lacking in FSM is the WW1 content, > specifically in the Reader's Gallery. I think we - as in the > collective list - should send photo's into the Reader's Gallery > *all at once*. That way we may be able to get an entire Reader's > Gallery devoted to the list, and it will be free publicity for us > - and Al. What do you think? If people are willing, I'm willing > to be the hub for this, as well. Once I get all the photo's from > those who want to participate, I'll ship them off enmasse. > > What do you think? Great idea, Matt. I'll put up any of my pics that are deemed suitable. Cheers, Erik ........................................................................ "Mr.Anchovy, perhaps you could move *towards* 'Lion Taming' via Banking, or even Insurance?..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:45:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: one and only? Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Mar 1997 GRBroman@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-03-20 20:52:09 EST, you write: > > << > Cheers y'all! ______ > | | > | | > ______| |~~~~~) > \_ ( > \__ } > \_ _( > | _/ > \_ _( > )/ > > >> > Is this a map of Baja Oklahoma? x]:) > Looks like the Isle of Wight to me. sandy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:41:49 -0400 (AST) From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: Re: Latest from Rosemont Message-ID: <199703212341.TAA03137@fw.true.net> At 07:44 AM 21-03-97 -0500, you wrote: >I received the latest flyer from Rosemont. They do have the >Eduard Pfalz D.III (although this is old news). However, the >"neat" news is that Tom's Modelworks has come out with photoetch >sheet for the Eduard Sopwith Triplane. The fiddly bits that are >on this sheet sounds like it's needed to make an AMS modeler >happy. > >Also listed is a Fokker Spinne III from VLE Models. Does anybody >know about this kit, able to provide some sort of review? This >is another model for those who *enjoy* rigging. Yikes! > >The also list their Drachen, Caquot, Sopwith Camel Lighter (how >is yours doing, Joe?), and Sikorsky S-10. > >Remember that I am not affiliated with Rosemont in any way. I'm >just an extremely satisfied customer. > > >Matt >mbittner@juno.com > How can I receive their catalog SALUDOS ALBERTO ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:39:58 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Wednesday, 21 March 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <3333629E.340F@host.dmsc.net> 961. Too windy and cloudy to permit flying all the day. Was put out about that as I wished very much to go out over the lines this morning. I wish I could do something really worth while for the English and thus get them willing to give me the English Military Cross. Captain Thenault to-day proposed me for a citation a'l'ordre d'armee which will bring me the Croix de Guerre with a palm. Poor MacConnell is proposed for a citation also but I'm afraid he is where he will never know of it or receive his decoration. No news of any sort of him to-day. Wrote a long letter this morning to Paul Rockwell telling him about Mac's fate as best I could and my fight. Got a letter from Cousin Hugh Eastburn but not as cordial a one as I would like. He expects to get a leave the latter part of April but may go to Rome if possible. Wrote to Mrs Wheeler late this afternoon. She and Dave will be glad to learn I've been cited at last. Mr & Mrs Hoskier, Ronald's parents came out to visit him and the Escadrille to-day. Dugan came out from Plessis Belleville to get a machine from the 67th Escadrille to take back to the G.D.E. and is staying over night with us. We had 17 persons at the table for dinner to-night. Mr & Mrs Hoskier and Dugan were the guests. Am on service at 6:45 to-morrow morning and from 5:20 p.m. until dark. From all reports there seem to be big chances of finding Boche machines along the lines now where the present offensive is. Poor MacConnell and I surely had little trouble finding two on Monday. I wish I could find one mighty soon and bring it down within our lines so as to avenge "Mac". I guess there will be no such luck for me tho. from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:48:25 -0600 From: "Bill Ciciora" To: Subject: Re: FSM Readers Gallery Message-ID: Matt wrote: > I think we - as in the collective list - should send photos > into the Reader's Gallery *all at once*. I'd be willing to participate. The problem will be finding someone with a 35mm SLR with all the attachments and stuff. I haven't had much luck taking pictures of my models with an autofocus camera. Bill C. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:47:35 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Latest from Rosemont Message-ID: <19970321.200413.13526.5.mbittner@juno.com> On Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:45:42 -0500 Alberto Rada writes: > How can I receive their catalog Try mailing them at: Rosemont Hobby Shop 7720 Main St Suite #5 PO Box 996 Fogelsville PA 18051-0996 Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:44:39 -0600 From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Collective photo mailing Message-ID: <19970321.200413.13526.4.mbittner@juno.com> So, it sounds like we have *some* interest. I would like to have more, though. Al's idea about an article is a great idea. However, I'm not a writer, and wouldn't know where to begin. Collecting photo's and mailing them in is easy; writing an article is not (at least for me). If we're to pursue an article, anybody willing to write something up? If not, I'll still collect the photo's for dissemination (I always wanted to use that in a sentence). As far as taking pictures, I can only recommend finding someone local willing to do this for you. Any other questions? ;-) Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 18:48:57 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Re[6]: Lt. Victor Hafner's D.V 5350/17 (was Pascha Albat Message-ID: <9702218589.AA858999256@mx.Ricochet.net> Rob, What about green/red-brown wings? Was this scheme used on some Alb. D.IIIs? I may have to make some more copies of the Halbys, but I'm going to go ahead and mail you what I've got so far. Riordan ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[4]: Lt. Victor Hafner's D.V 5350/17 (was Pascha Albat Author: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu at Internet Date: 3/20/97 9:38 PM Riordan: I'm still sceptical on the grey Turks. Datafile color is often highly suspect in my view, if only because it is taken so seriously by the modelers among us. Descriptions from contemporary observers are also suspect (though less so in the case of actual hands-on captured materiel). The eye plays tricks. How long did the observer examine it? Was it returned to depot for study or hacked up for souvenirs and abandoned in situ? In this case, what is meant by "overall"? A wood fuselage unprotected from the sun might reasonably be expected to end up looking like a silvery old barn. The one thing that is not specified in the quote you give is the finish of the UPPER wing. Finally, what did the author you quote base HIS information on? Perhaps he merely extrapolated from the comments of an eye-witness who was struck mainly by the silvery fusleage. Historical questions are settled reliably (if at all) on the balance of evidence-- surviving samples, eye-witness testimony, knowledge of normal practice at the time, knowledge of industrial processes, and informed modern speculation. No one (or two) factors is ever conclusive. We also need to be careful about the tendency of enthusiasts to want to discover something missed by earlier generations of scholars. Lots of nonsense (and, admittedly, a few real insights) gets generated this way. I suggest that you correspond with my good friend Charles Hart, of the list . He silk-screened the original Americal/Gryphon decals and knows more about WW1 finishes than anybody I know. He's more conservative in his views than any ten of me, so he makes a good sounding board for speculations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:47:28 -0600 From: The Shannons To: wwi Subject: Re: one and only? Message-ID: <33334840.575F@ix.netcom.com> gspring@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Austin Roster: David Edgerly (Russian outlaw biker) > Tom Eisenhour (sometime member, Austin Moribund Modelers) > Mark Shannon (erudite renaissance sort) > Greg Springer (current AMM member) > )/ > -- Shoot fire, I ain't no Erudite, I'm Scots-Irish. -- This has been Mark and/or Mary Shannon at Shingend@ix.netcom.com History manages to get away with cliches no novelist could. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:10:25, -0500 From: NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) To: mbittner@juno.com, wwi Subject: Re: Collective photo mailing Message-ID: <199703220310.WAA221470@mime4.prodigy.com> -- [ From: Kenneth Hagerup * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Matt wrote: > So, it sounds like we have *some* interest. I would like to have more , though. > > Al's idea about an article is a great idea. However, I'm not a writer , and > wouldn't know where to begin. Collecting photo's and mailing them in is easy; > writing an article is not (at least for me). > > If we're to pursue an article, anybody willing to write something up? If not, > I'll still collect the photo's for dissemination (I always wanted to use that > in a sentence). I can help with writing. Since Matt and I work about 12 feet apart, at least coordination will be easy. Ken -- Kenneth Hagerup 11419 South 43rd Ave Omaha, NE 68123 npwe28a@prodigy.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:56:14 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Female German pilot downed by Yank flier Message-ID: <33339EAE.13E@host.dmsc.net> **************************** this from the CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE, 12 Sept 18: WITH THE AMERICAN ARMY IN FRANCE, Sept. 11-- [By the Associated Press]: That the Germans are using women as military aviators is indicated in a report that in a machine recently brought down by the Americans the pilot, who was killed, was a woman. The captain of a company of the One Hundred and Sixty-seventy Infantry says the pilot of a German plane brought down near Sergy Aug. 28 by Lieut. Miller Thompson of the American air force was a woman. The discovery of the sex of the aviator was made, the captain says, when his men buried the enmy pilot and her observer. ********************************** Bradley Omanson homanger@host.dmsc.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:18:41 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: Re: Latest FSM Message-ID: <199703220623.BAA18261@cliff.cris.com> > On 21 Mar 97, mbittner@juno.com heroically postulated: > > > One thing that's been sorely lacking in FSM is the WW1 content, > > specifically in the Reader's Gallery. I think we - as in the > > collective list - should send photo's into the Reader's Gallery > > *all at once*. That way we may be able to get an entire Reader's > > Gallery devoted to the list, and it will be free publicity for us I hate to be a killjoy, but I think the chances of success here are are somewhere between nill and none. FSM once printed interesting material--scratchbuilding, museum models, lots of WW1. But now they seem to be a mouthpiece for model companies. Like the once-interesting Scale Modeler, they choose the most pedestrian subjects with an eye to their ad- account managers down at Revellogramagawa: Japanese robo-heroines, late-model Camaros, F-15s/16s/18s with brass-bits stuck on for that "original," "master- modeler" touch. My WW1 contribution (on scratch-building WW1 engines) was accepted about five years ago. I made lots of changes to suit their perceived market. They got all my negatives, on the assurance that they would select a few and return the rest as soon as it was published. They paid the customary pittance, then never published and never returned my photos. My article on scratch-built ejection sets was accepted a year later and published in a few months. Officially, it was a matter of length and "balance." But length was not much greater. And balance? How much on jets do you see vs. biplanes? I've stopped taking the magazine. For all its limitations, the English periodical Scale Aviation Modeller international is a better buy both for WW1 content and for general technique info. I think it is no coincidence that it has become widely available in the US during roughly the same time as FSM has done its slide into banality. When you count pages, color, reviews, and useful info, it is even a better value, especially now that FSM's prices have climbed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:18:41 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: Re: one and only? Message-ID: <199703220623.BAA18275@cliff.cris.com> > On Fri, 21 Mar 1997 GRBroman@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 97-03-20 20:52:09 EST, you write: > > > > << > > Cheers y'all! ______ > > | | > > | | > > ______| |~~~~~) > > \_ ( > > \__ } > > \_ _( > > | _/ > > \_ _( > > )/ > > > > >> > > Is this a map of Baja Oklahoma? x]:) > > > > Looks like the Isle of Wight to me. sandy > I thought it was a wilted lettuce leaf. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:18:41 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: Re: Re[6]: Lt. Victor Hafner's D.V 5350/17 (was Pascha Albat Message-ID: <199703220623.BAA18321@cliff.cris.com> Riordan: You write: > What about green/red-brown wings? Was this scheme used on some Alb. > D.IIIs? I doubt it. That went out with the D.II as near as I know (Charles?). Now, if some of these Turkatroses were Austro-hungarian Oeffags, they might well have had green/brown wings. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:05:14 -0800 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Female German pilot downed by Yank flier Message-ID: <199703220805.AA01379@ednet1.orednet.org> Bradley Omanson quoted: > >**************************** >this from the CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE, 12 Sept 18: > >WITH THE AMERICAN ARMY IN FRANCE, Sept. 11-- >[By the Associated Press]: That the Germans are using women as military >aviators is indicated in a report that in a machine recently brought down >by the Americans the pilot, who was killed, was a woman. > The captain of a company of the One Hundred and Sixty-seventy Infantry >says the pilot of a German plane brought down near Sergy Aug. 28 by >Lieut. Miller Thompson of the American air force was a woman. > The discovery of the sex of the aviator was made, the captain says, >when his men buried the enmy pilot and her observer. > >********************************** Sounds like typical wartime "urban legend" to me. "Wings of Honor" lists no American aviator named Miller Thompson. Cheers, -- - Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org - "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:50:09 GMT From: "Leonard Endy" To: wwi Subject: New Items Message-ID: <3337c764.43666274@legend.firstsaga.com> Not sure if I've read about these here yet so...... The following new items are mentioned in issue 2, volume 3, of SAMi: Pegasus 1/72: Albatros W.4 Seaplane Breguet 14 Hansa-Brandenburg W.29 Blue Max 1/48 Sopwith Camel Halberstadt CL.II Roland C.II "Walfisch" Blue Rider Decals 1/72 Sheet BR 246: Albatros D.III and Hansa-Brandenburg C.I during the Corinthian Wars 1/48 Sheet BR 510: 3 Dr.I's of Jasta 11 Sheet BR 511: 3 Dr.I's of Jasta 2 No specific time frame for release of the kits was mentioned. Issue 4 of Insignia magazine has the following: Polish Air Force markings 1917-1924 Poland's Lithuanian campaign during 1920/21 Various color schemes for Albatros D.III (Oef) series 153/253 aircraft. Bulgarian Naval Aviation in 1919 Russian Civil War aircraft 1918/22 The free decal sheet relates to the Bulgarian article and has markings for the Friedrichshafen FF.32L This may be old news to some, the issue of SAMi is from Jan/Feb time frame in the UK. I just p/u a copy in my local book store the other day. Will post a contents list for the new insignia book "Lithuanian Air Force 1918-1940" w/decal sheet, over the weekend. Len lfendy@firstsaga.com "Planes, Trains and...that's all that matters." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 8:42:13 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Kilduff To: wwi Subject: German women pilots in WW I? Message-ID: <970322084213.20611e72@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> In response to: >Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:11:27 -0500 >From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Female German pilot downed by Yank flier > >**************************** >this from the CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE, 12 Sept 18: > >WITH THE AMERICAN ARMY IN FRANCE, Sept. 11-- >[By the Associated Press]: That the Germans are using women as military >aviators is indicated in a report that in a machine recently brought down >by the Americans the pilot, who was killed, was a woman. > The captain of a company of the One Hundred and Sixty-seventy Infantry >says the pilot of a German plane brought down near Sergy Aug. 28 by >Lieut. Miller Thompson of the American air force was a woman. > The discovery of the sex of the aviator was made, the captain says, >when his men buried the enmy pilot and her observer. > >********************************** According to the most complete German aviation necrology -- _Verlustliste der deutschen Luftstreitkraefte im Weltkriege_ compiled by Major a.D. Wilhelm Zickerick (1930) -- only one German two-seater loss occurred that day. While it was within a broad area in which U.S. troops were deployed, the downed aircraft was crewed by two male aviators: Gefreiter [Private] Reinhold Bergfeld, age 21, and Leutnant der Reserve [2/Lt Reserves] Robert Weidler, age 22, who were brought down near Nesle. They had been on an artillery- spotting (ranging big guns) mission as members of Flieger-Abteilung (A) 245. As was so often the case, the two-seater pilot was an enlisted man and the observer a commissioned officer. Their names do not appear on existing German burial records, so they may have been buried by AEF troops in the area. Several facts fit the scenario described (although it would be helpful to know whether the U.S. 167th Infantry [Regiment?] was deployed reasonably close to Nesle). But it is unlikely that the pilot, Gefreiter Reinhold Bergfeld, was a woman; given the close contact of the time and the fact that aviation personnel had a more "comfortable" existence (e.g., showering and bathing facilities) than ground troops, it is hard to imagine a woman "sneaking" into the German Air Force [Luftstreitkraefte]. This account sure sounds like "urban legend" material to me. Peter Kilduff kilduff@ccsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 12:07:07 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: German women pilots in WW I? Message-ID: <33343BEB.3DDC@host.dmsc.net> Peter Kilduff wrote: > > In response to: > > >Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:11:27 -0500 > >From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Female German pilot downed by Yank flier > > > >**************************** > >this from the CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE, 12 Sept 18: > > > >WITH THE AMERICAN ARMY IN FRANCE, Sept. 11-- > >[By the Associated Press]: That the Germans are using women as military > >aviators is indicated in a report that in a machine recently brought down > >by the Americans the pilot, who was killed, was a woman. > > The captain of a company of the One Hundred and Sixty-seventy Infantry > >says the pilot of a German plane brought down near Sergy Aug. 28 by > >Lieut. Miller Thompson of the American air force was a woman. > > The discovery of the sex of the aviator was made, the captain says, > >when his men buried the enmy pilot and her observer. > > > >********************************** > > According to the most complete German aviation necrology -- _Verlustliste der > deutschen Luftstreitkraefte im Weltkriege_ compiled by Major a.D. Wilhelm > Zickerick (1930) -- only one German two-seater loss occurred that day. While > it was within a broad area in which U.S. troops were deployed, the downed > aircraft was crewed by two male aviators: Gefreiter [Private] Reinhold > Bergfeld, age 21, and Leutnant der Reserve [2/Lt Reserves] Robert Weidler, > age 22, who were brought down near Nesle. They had been on an artillery- > spotting (ranging big guns) mission as members of Flieger-Abteilung (A) 245. > As was so often the case, the two-seater pilot was an enlisted man and the > observer a commissioned officer. Their names do not appear on existing > German burial records, so they may have been buried by AEF troops in the > area. > > Several facts fit the scenario described (although it would be helpful to know > whether the U.S. 167th Infantry [Regiment?] was deployed reasonably close to > Nesle). But it is unlikely that the pilot, Gefreiter Reinhold Bergfeld, was > a woman; given the close contact of the time and the fact that aviation > personnel had a more "comfortable" existence (e.g., showering and bathing > facilities) than ground troops, it is hard to imagine a woman "sneaking" into > the German Air Force [Luftstreitkraefte]. > > This account sure sounds like "urban legend" material to me. > > Peter Kilduff > kilduff@ccsu.edu Peter, The 167th Regt of the 42nd Div was near Nesle, Sergy & the Foret de Nesle around Aug 2nd. Do you show any German two-seaters downed near there on that date, give or take a day? Bradley ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 474 *********************