WWI Digest 470 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: 'Mother' by GRBroman@aol.com 2) Saturday, 17 March 1917, Raoenel by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 3) Books: Canadian Airmen & the First World War by bobmills@MSIS.dmso.mil (Robert J. Mills, Jr., 703-379-3880) 4) Re: Aurora kits by lothar@ncw.net (mark) 5) Re: Lt. Victor Hafner's D.V 5350/17 (was Pascha Albatrosen) by lothar@ncw.net (mark) 6) Sunday, 18 July 1917, Raoenel by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 7) Re: one and only?(Re: Button design) by "Rob " 8) Sunday, 18 July 1917, Raoenel (corrected) by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 9) Re: Aurora kits by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 10) Albatros help and Museum visit. by Sandy Adam 11) Duckworth not Ducky by aew (Allan Wright) 12) Udet's Fokkers by Jack Berlien 13) Rep : Udet's Fokkers by Fportier@aol.com 14) re: Rep : Udet's Fokkers by Jack Berlien 15) Re: Albatros help and Museum visit. by phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:29:06 -0500 (EST) From: GRBroman@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: 'Mother' Message-ID: <970317202905_-1136759346@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-16 21:39:35 EST, you write: << The March 1997 issue of the _Journal of Military Ordnance_ has an article on 'Mother'. Why wasn't this around when I was doing my conversion? Gads... >> The same reason that the new (highly off-topic) IS-III didn't come out until my AEF Designs resin kit from hell was nearly done :) Glen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:10:46 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Saturday, 17 March 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <332E31E6.3F56@host.dmsc.net> 957. Bapaume was taken by the British forces today. Czar of Russia forced to abdicate and a governmnet has been set up by the people there. St Patrick's Day and the first anniversary of our Escadrille. Fine day particularly in p.m. At a quarter to six this morning, just before our first patrol was to leave, word came that a Zeppelin had passed Mondider going west so, having incendiary bullets in my machine, I went out with the Patrol comprising Hoskier, myself, Willis and Bigelow. We left at 6:10, Hoskier leading, with me 2nd and went north to Mondider mounting about the clouds which were at 2200 meters. Willis failed to keep up with us and we lost Bigelow later on. Hoskier and I flew around towards Paris and back above the clouds but didn't see the Zeppelin because it had already been brought down in flames south of Compeign by aerial cannon about 6:30. We came down below the clouds which were rapidly dispersing as the sun rose but got lost coming north, ran low in gasoline, so landed, in a little village, in a good field and found we were 16 kilometers north of Bauvais-- just west of St Just. Hoskier telegraphed our plight and an auto arrived from the Escadrille with a supply of fuel about 1 o'clock and we left and got to St Just at 1:30. The message Hoskier sent got mixed so that they didn't understand I was with him until I got back so consequently I was supposed to be missing and possibly dead. This is beginning to be a strenuous and exciting life here--chasing Drachens one day and Zeppelins the next. Tomorrow I may go after Drachens again. I never thought I'd have an opportunity to chase Zeppelins. Wish I'd seen this one this morning and gotten into a fight with it. Such is my poor luck. French took a lot of ground along this sector this morning, Roye, a lot of ground south of it. The big offensive has begun here alright. Took a walk down to St Just this afternoon to get a shave. Lot of troops are billited around here now waiting as reserve forces for the offensive. 3rd Reg. of Zouaves is in St Just. With my khai-khi uniform something like theirs and my "fourragere" and service stripes they look at me and wonder who I am. They must know I've been in the Moroccan Division. It seems like old times to see them around me. The Legion is either in the trenches of else further north in repose. from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet ************************************** Saturday, March 17, 1917 At a quarter to six this morning, just before our first patrol was to leave, word came that a Zepplin had been sighted west of Montdidier going S.W. I, having incendiary bullets in my machine, was called out by the Captain to go with the first patrol consisting of Hoskier, who led, myself second, and Bigelow and Willis bringing up the rear. We got off at 10 minutes after six and headed north to west of Montdidier where we mounted above the clouds which hung at 2200 and there we turned south toward Paris in search of the Zeppelins. Willis failed to get started in time and was unable to catch up. I kept close to Hoskier and when we two went down below the clouds again south toward Paris Bigelow lost track of us and later found Willis and Captain Thenault near Campaigne where a Zeppelin had been brought down soon after we left St Just. Hoskier and I headed north again but went too far west of St Just and lost our direction around Bauvais. We landed at a little town 16 kilometers north of Bauvais without accident in a good field on account of having no more gasoline. Hoskier telegraphed for gasoline and to tell them where we were but somehow the message got mixed up and they had no word of =my= whereabouts until I got back with Hoskier and thus I was thought to be missing--even dead--the second time in two weeks now. The gasoline arrived at 1 o'clock and Hoskier and I came directly back to St Just--a matter of 20 minutes flight due east. Life here is becoming exciting and interesting for me--chasing Drachens one day and Zeppelins the next morning. I like that lots only wish I had seen that Zeppelin to bring it down myself. Time: 2 hours 20 minutes Height--Max. 4000 meters from the Flight Log of E.C.C. Genet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 02:39:20 -0500 From: bobmills@MSIS.dmso.mil (Robert J. Mills, Jr., 703-379-3880) To: wwi Subject: Books: Canadian Airmen & the First World War Message-ID: To the literati on the wwi list I have an "opportunity" to purchase a two volume set of Canadian Airmen & The First World War by S. Wise for about $100.00 with shipping. These books are Canadian government reprints of the official "RCAF" history (if indeed the RCAF was established during WWI). I am at the distinct disadvantage of having never seen these books and they are physically located on the US West Coast, so they're not terribly convenient for me to peruse. My basic question to the list is (a) whether the price is reasonable and (b) what makes these books unique enough that I can reasonable justify the level of investment? On the chance that these books are more common than I'm led to believe, does anyone know of a book store that offers them at a less painful price? I would appreciate any advice that the members can offer--the sooner the better since I have only five days to decide on purchase or not. If you can help, please reply direct to me (please see NOTE below)--I'll summarize what I find out and repost the best of any summaries or recommendations--so that we don't waste band width on this topic. Thanks for your indulgence. Lurk mode on. Regards, Bob Mills ************************************************* *********** N * O * T * E *************** I have a schizoid server with multiple personality disorder. Pleae send replies to me at all of the following--odds are good that I'll get at least one of them: bobmills@msis.dmso.mil bobmills@triton.dmso.mil bobmills@dmso.mil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:19:59 -0800 (PST) From: lothar@ncw.net (mark) To: wwi Subject: Re: Aurora kits Message-ID: <199703180719.XAA21497@concord.televar.com> Matt holds forth: >Forgive a small scale builder's ignorance, but...wouldn't the >Glencoe D.III make a good replacement fuselage? If I remember >the article Rimmel wrote on "correcting" the Glencoe, the largest >bone of contention on the Glencoe kit is the wing, right? True, very true,...the Glencoe fuselage, at least, <<>> be fixed. It's quite a bit of work, but at least it is possible. The wings, however, are beyond redemption, and more than anything else earn this kit its proper place in modelling hell... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:30:37 -0800 (PST) From: lothar@ncw.net (mark) To: wwi Subject: Re: Lt. Victor Hafner's D.V 5350/17 (was Pascha Albatrosen) Message-ID: <199703180730.XAA23129@concord.televar.com> > Paschaphiles, > > I'm looking at a photo in C&C vol. 11 #4 pg 353 which shows this D.V > with a light/dark two tone scheme of standard pattern on the flying > surfaces and possible natural wood fuselage w/ dark vertical band. > I'm guessing the colors might be feldgrau and red-brown... > > Any ideas? > > Riordan Hey Riordan - Forgive my ignorance, but would feldgrau be a green or a gray color? My teutonic is fairly limited. Looking at the same photo myself, I'm wondering if the two tone might be a tan with red-brown, simply because it makes a logical desert camo. Note that the Turkish AEG CIV on the preceding page has what appears to be a similar two tone pattern. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:42:16 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Sunday, 18 July 1917, Raoenel Message-ID: <332ED3F8.24A2@host.dmsc.net> 958. Fair day. Went out at 9 o'clock with our first patrol to look for Drachens and to reconnoiter. MacConnell, Soubiran, Bigelow and myself composed the group. French forces advanced this morning taking without opposition Noyon and Nesle and all the country between. Clouds gathering rapidly at 600 metres about 10 o'clock forced us to quit patroling and return but "Mac" and myself got lost east of Cermont and had to land at an aviation camp there for gasoline. We got back here at noon but had to fly at 250 metres to find our way. Saw neither German machines nor Drachens this morning. Hoskier, Lovell, Willis and myself went out on a volunteeer reconnoitering trip at 2:30 this afternoon over the new territory gained by the French to-day. On account of the clouds we had to keep below 1000 meters. We had a very interesting trip of 1 hour and a half north of Nesle to the present German positions and east along the region of Guiscard which is still in their hands. Region is all flooded around Noyon, and the whole territory taken by the French is burned and torn up by the retiring Germans and they are destroying all the villages within their lines to the north and east and around St Quentin but are amassing troops at St Quentin for a probably heavy counter-offensive very soon. This retire of theirs has been a clever move without doubt but it shows they don't wish to lose any more men than possible. When we went out and came in this p.m. (especially when we came in) we had an enormous audience of "poilus" and civilians from St Just. It seemed more like being at the Garden City Aerodrome than here on the front. Russia has formed a new and better government and the French Deputies (Briande and the rest) have resigned. Two Zeppelins were reported brought down in England yesterday. Capt Guynemer brought 3 German avions down in French territory yesterday near Nancy. Went to St Just with Lovell late this p.m. Thaw and Lt de Laage back-- also "Soda" our lioness for "Whiskey." from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet *************************************** Sunday, March 18, 917 Went out on a volunteer patrol at 2:30 this afternoon with Hoskier, Lovell and Willis over the new territory gained by our troops and into the enemy territory north of Nesle and east of Guiscard to observe there. Clouds at 1000 meters kept us below that altitude but we made a good patrol and kept together very well. Saw neither enemy avions nor drachens and got back at 4 o'clock with an awful croud of "poilus" and curious civilians from St Just. Just out on the field to crowd around us when we landed. Time: 1 hour 30 minutes Height 1000 meters Total time over the lines to date: 30 hours 30 minutes from the Flight Log of E.C.C. Genet, N-124 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:04:29 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: Re: one and only?(Re: Button design) Message-ID: <199703180509.AAA03748@cliff.cris.com> Hiro: > > I think that they have a horror of English and too shy to mistake, as like me :-) One thing my brief sojourn in Italy 20 years ago taught me was that making mistakes is part of the fun of speaking a foreign language. I did not speak Italian as well as you do English. But people were fascinated by what I had to say in part because I was a foreign speaker--they appreciated the effort and the novel point of view and saw the humor in my Americanisms. Once, I referred to the then fashionable pointy-toed shoes of my hosts by translating the colloquial American phrase "roach killers"--"assassini degli insetti" -- to the general amusement of all present. I think that you and any of your list-lurking compatriots will find that much the same is true of the English-speakers on this list. Rob. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:03:36 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Sunday, 18 July 1917, Raoenel (corrected) Message-ID: <332EE708.5BF5@host.dmsc.net> 958. Fair day. Went out at 9 o'clock with our first patrol to look for Drachens and to reconnoiter. MacConnell, Soubiran, Bigelow and myself composed the group. French forces advanced this morning taking without opposition Noyon and Nesle and all the country between. Clouds gathering rapidly at 600 metres about 10 o'clock forced us to quit patroling and return but "Mac" and myself got lost east of Cermont and had to land at an aviation camp there for gasoline. We got back here at noon but had to fly at 250 metres to find our way. Saw neither German machines nor Drachens this morning. Hoskier, Lovell, Willis and myself went out on a volunteeer reconnoitering trip at 2:30 this afternoon over the new territory gained by the French to-day. On account of the clouds we had to keep below 1000 meters. We had a very interesting trip of 1 hour and a half north of Nesle to the present German positions and east along the region of Guiscard which is still in their hands. Region is all flooded around Noyon, and the whole territory taken by the French is burned and torn up by the retiring Germans and they are destroying all the villages within their lines to the north and east and around St Quentin but are amassing troops at St Quentin for a probably heavy counter-offensive very soon. This retire of theirs has been a clever move without doubt but it shows they don't wish to lose any more men than possible. When we went out and came in this p.m. (especially when we came in) we had an enormous audience of "poilus" and civilians from St Just. It seemed more like being at the Garden City Aerodrome than here on the front. Russia has formed a new and better government and the French Deputies (Briande and the rest) have resigned. Two Zeppelins were reported brought down in England yesterday. Capt Guynemer brought 3 German avions down in French territory yesterday near Nancy. Went to St Just with Lovell late this p.m. Thaw and Lt de Laage back-- also "Soda" our lioness for "Whiskey." from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet *************************************** Sunday, March 18, 1917 Went out with first patrol this morning at 9 o'clock in the morning consisting of MacConnell, Soubiran, Bigelow and myself to reconnoiter and bring down any drachens seen. We saw none but went over the new ground gained by the French yestercday which includes Roye and Lassigny and east to Noyon and Guiscard. Low clouds (at 600 meters) came rapidly up around 10 o'clock and obscured the ground so we headed home via Compiegne. MacConnell and I got lost east of Cermont and had to land at an aviation stations near Clermont to get more gasoline and we got back to Just at Noon. Saw no German avions this morning. While over the line the French "Poilus" advanced and took Noyon and a little territory north and east of it, Nesle and all the land between there and Noyon without any loss of life or delay. The Germans have entirely retired from this region back to their 4th line defenses from St Quentin down but are amassing large number of toops around St Quentin for formidible counter offensive very shortly. Time: 2 hours 15 minutes Height 3500 meters Sunday, March 18, 917 Went out on a volunteer patrol at 2:30 this afternoon with Hoskier, Lovell and Willis over the new territory gained by our troops and into the enemy territory north of Nesle and east of Guiscard to observe there. Clouds at 1000 meters kept us below that altitude but we made a good patrol and kept together very well. Saw neither enemy avions nor drachens and got back at 4 o'clock with an awful croud of "poilus" and curious civilians from St Just. Just out on the field to crowd around us when we landed. Time: 1 hour 30 minutes Height 1000 meters Total time over the lines to date: 30 hours 30 minutes from the Flight Log of E.C.C. Genet, N-124 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:20:42 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Aurora kits Message-ID: Paul writes: >As to Mr. Rimell and his reviews of new kits, I'm beginning to think that >he is willing to give a good review to anything that shows up in a box and >says it's a WW I kit. >Some of the stuff he says is good, just plain sucks! Maybe he needs to >refer to some of the pictures in his own publications. > >I'm glad someone is publishing books on our favorite subject, but I refuse >to kiss up to any company, just because at the moment they are the only >game in town. Lots of the scale drawings in the Datafiles are incorrect >when compared to the photos in the same book. Why is that.......? I rate >kits by how they match the photos, not how they match the drawings. I would have to agree with these sentiments. I don't think I have ever seen a critical or objective "review" of any product eminate from the pen, typewriter or computer of Ray Rimell. He is providing a useful vehicle for informing us all about our favorite aircraft subjects and related hobby products. But given that he obviously uses a lot of what he is given to review, I think he owes it to his readers to tell us what he really thinks of some of these items. My $0.02 worth. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:27:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Sandy Adam To: wwi group Subject: Albatros help and Museum visit. Message-ID: I took the kids for a day out on Monday and decided to go to the Museum of Flight just outside Edinburgh which I had not visited for a decade. This is an annexe to the Royal Scottish Museum and is based on an airfield established in 1915 to defend Edinburgh from airship attacks. What a pleasant surprise awaited me! I remembered the Spitfire and Me163 and all the post war jets (including the Vulcan that bombed Stanley airfield during the Falklands War), but had never seen the new WW1 stuff before. No complete aircraft - but lots of bits like the SE5 wings, Camel seat and control column, Mercedes 180hp engine caught my attention amongst many others. One thing that stood out was a section of Albatros DIII fuselage complete with cross, that was finished in a strange green shade with soup-plate-sized yellow polka dots! The number was 769/17 and I wonder if any of the AltenDeutschenKamaraden on this list have serial lists that would a) give details of how this machine was lost and b) what the rest of the colour scheme was. It certainly looks like a pretty bizarre finish but I would dearly love to do my Eduard DIII (when it comes out) in a locally appropriate scheme. The MoF is based at East Fortune airfield, which used to house the airships R24, R29 and the R34 which set of from there on 21st July 1919 to accomplish the first East-West Atlantic crossing to Long Island NY and flew back to complete the first two-way flight. This was heavily overshadowed at the time by Alcock and Brown a few weeks before, but warrants at least a mention in the history books. Lots of airship memorabilia, including a beautiful 1/72 scale model (about six feet long!) escorted by a tiny SE5. Also bits of Zeppelins, including a section supposedly of Warneford's kill. The area, most on this list would die for, is the recreation of a pre-1970's model shop with shelves full of old Aurora, Merit, Lindbergh, Kleeware (remember them?), Frog, Airfix etc plastic kits and boxes of old solid wooden models. Wow! Well worth a visit, and if anyone can help with the Albatros, I'd greatly appreciate it. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:37:29 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Duckworth not Ducky Message-ID: <199703181837.NAA09181@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Anyone in Charles Duckworth's local area that could give him a call? Let him know that his address is bouncing messages sent to it back to the server (and filling up the administrators mailbox). Thanks, Allan =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:42:52 -0800 From: Jack Berlien To: wwi Subject: Udet's Fokkers Message-ID: I would like to model some of Udet's interesting color schemes, but my only source on his aircraft, the JG1 Fabric Special, shows several different DVIIs, most but not all with red fuselages, with the only common feature being LO! on the side. The most common scheme I have seen modeled elsewhere, and copied on a full-size replica, is the red/white candy-stripe top wing with Du Doch Nicht on the tailplane, although there is some confusion about whether the underside of the top wing is striped or lozenge, or whether the nose is black or red. Obviously there were several planes with similar but not identical schemes. Can anyone summarize Udet's aircraft and the various color schemes? Best regards, Jack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:08:34 -0500 (EST) From: Fportier@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Rep : Udet's Fokkers Message-ID: <970318150656_-1237323021@emout19.mail.aol.com> Udet seems to have had three different D VIIs. The one with the candy striped wings was destroyed very early on when Udet was shot down and narrowly escaped death. He flew again the same afternoon. The other two D VIIs had lozenge fabric on the wings but retained the red fuselage. For more details try to get hold of Windsock Vol 4 no4 winter 1988 for three-view plans and article by Dan San Abbott. Best regards, Francois ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:35:33 -0800 From: Jack Berlien To: wwi Subject: re: Rep : Udet's Fokkers Message-ID: Thanks, Francois. Is anybody out there with this issue willing to send me a copy of this artical? Thanks, Jack > From: Fportier@aol.com, on 3/18/97 3:11 PM: > Udet seems to have had three different D VIIs. The one with the candy > striped > wings was destroyed very early on when Udet was shot down and narrowly > escaped death. He flew again the same afternoon. The other two D VIIs had > lozenge fabric on the wings but retained the red fuselage. For more details > try to get hold of Windsock Vol 4 no4 winter 1988 for three-view plans and > article by Dan San Abbott. > Best regards, > Francois > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:30:09 -0600 From: phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) To: Subject: Re: Albatros help and Museum visit. Message-ID: <19970318234337.AAA1620@default> Got any pictures of the markings? That might make it easier to find. P Howard ---------- > From: Sandy Adam > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Albatros help and Museum visit. > Date: Tuesday, March 18, 1997 12:32 PM > > I took the kids for a day out on Monday and decided to go to the Museum of > Flight just outside Edinburgh which I had not visited for a decade. This > is an annexe to the Royal Scottish Museum and is based on an airfield > established in 1915 to defend Edinburgh from airship attacks. > > What a pleasant surprise awaited me! I remembered the Spitfire and Me163 > and all the post war jets (including the Vulcan that bombed Stanley > airfield during the Falklands War), but had never seen the new WW1 stuff > before. No complete aircraft - but lots of bits like the SE5 wings, Camel > seat and control column, Mercedes 180hp engine caught my attention amongst > many others. > > One thing that stood out was a section of Albatros DIII fuselage complete > with cross, that was finished in a strange green shade with > soup-plate-sized yellow polka dots! The number was 769/17 and I wonder if > any of the AltenDeutschenKamaraden on this list have serial lists that > would a) give details of how this machine was lost and b) what the rest of > the colour scheme was. It certainly looks like a pretty bizarre finish but > I would dearly love to do my Eduard DIII (when it comes out) in a locally > appropriate scheme. > > The MoF is based at East Fortune airfield, which used to house the > airships R24, R29 and the R34 which set of from there on 21st July 1919 to > accomplish the first East-West Atlantic crossing to Long Island NY and > flew back to complete the first two-way flight. This was heavily > overshadowed at the time by Alcock and Brown a few weeks before, but > warrants at least a mention in the history books. Lots of airship > memorabilia, including a beautiful 1/72 scale model (about six feet long!) > escorted by a tiny SE5. Also bits of Zeppelins, including a section > supposedly of Warneford's kill. > > The area, most on this list would die for, is the recreation of a > pre-1970's model shop with shelves full of old Aurora, Merit, Lindbergh, > Kleeware (remember them?), Frog, Airfix etc plastic kits and boxes of old > solid wooden models. Wow! > > Well worth a visit, and if anyone can help with the Albatros, I'd greatly > appreciate it. > Sandy ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 470 *********************