WWI Digest 464 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Starting The Library by lothar@ncw.net (mark) 2) Re: Friday, 9 March 1917, Raoenel near St Just by lothar@ncw.net (mark) 3) Re: Nationals Idea / Silver EIII by lothar@ncw.net (mark) 4) Re: Nationals Idea / Silver EIII by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 5) Re: I'm back by Pedro Soares 6) Button design (fwd) by aew (Allan Wright) 7) Monday, 12 March 1917, Paris, St Just, Raoenel by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 8) Re: slightly off topic query by "Eli Geher" 9) Re: Button design (fwd) by "Erik" 10) Re: Button design (fwd) by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 11) Re: Button design (fwd) by aero@baynet.net (Jim Lyzun) 12) The Pin by aew (Allan Wright) 13) RE: The Pin by "William B. Bacon, Jr." 14) The Button by barrett@iplink.net (barrett) 15) RE: The Button by Shane Weier 16) RE: The Pin by "Rob " 17) more EIII stuff by "Erik" 18) Pascha Albatrosen by "Shelley Goodwin" 19) Re: more EIII stuff by NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) 20) RE: more EIII stuff by Shane Weier 21) More on The Pin / Suggestion by "S.M. Head" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:18:39 -0800 (PST) From: lothar@ncw.net (mark) To: wwi Subject: Re: Starting The Library Message-ID: <199703120718.XAA26469@concord.televar.com> >4) Janes Fighting Aircraft of WWI. This is a "classic," I guess, and I >mail-ordered it after reading Al's web page suggestions for books to buy. >I'm not sorry I did, since this is an exhaustive work with lots of photos >of planes and engines. Too bad there's no colour, but its cool as a >reference. For those who don't yet own this weighty tome...I can second the recommendation. An interesting thing about this book is that it's very comprehensive, and even covers aircraft produced by non-combatant nations during the 1914-1918 era. I had never realized just how many of the non-combatants produced aircraft - e.g., Denmark, Spain, Sweden - even Siam (Thailand) and Mexico! The possibilities for some very esoteric scratchbuilding projects are astounding.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:18:42 -0800 (PST) From: lothar@ncw.net (mark) To: wwi Subject: Re: Friday, 9 March 1917, Raoenel near St Just Message-ID: <199703120718.XAA26477@concord.televar.com> >[snippage]... Arrived in Paris at 5:45 and came up to Roosevelt. >Had dinner there with Mrs Parker. Major away on trip to the Champagne >front but expected back tomorrow. Felt jolly well tired so turned in >early... Aha! So when the Major's away, Genet will play! Could explain why he's not whining <> as much about Gertie these days... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:18:43 -0800 (PST) From: lothar@ncw.net (mark) To: wwi Subject: Re: Nationals Idea / Silver EIII Message-ID: <199703120718.XAA26486@concord.televar.com> Matt opines: >Don't know if it's green or not - the leading consensus is "yes" >- but there are a few photo's of E.III's next to B-types, and the >E.III's are definitely *darker* than the B-types. To supply a >corralary (sp?) to Charles, there are a few people that think >that most E.III's were delivered in this darker - green? - scheme >instead of clear doped linen. Until someone can prove it wrong, >I'm going to think that this darker scheme *is* green. There are definitely plenty of photos (just check the Datafile and the Squadron book) showing EIII's that are too dark to be clear doped linen. But wouldn't it have made more sense that <> EIII's started off as clear doped, then the darker color was applied later? It only seems logical to follow the path of least resistance, i.e., that it's a lot easier to paint a dark color over a light one than vice-versa. This would explain the known variations from clear doped AC - whether it's the green(?) or other dark color seen in photos of some German EIII's, the alleged green Austro-Hungarian EIII's, or the red-brown(?) Turkish EIII's. Just my $.02 worth. Commence firing........;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:13:10 -0800 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Nationals Idea / Silver EIII Message-ID: <199703120813.AA04097@ednet1.orednet.org> > >Matt opines: >>Don't know if it's green or not - the leading consensus is "yes" >>- but there are a few photo's of E.III's next to B-types, and the >>E.III's are definitely *darker* than the B-types. To supply a >>corralary (sp?) to Charles, there are a few people that think >>that most E.III's were delivered in this darker - green? - scheme >>instead of clear doped linen. Until someone can prove it wrong, >>I'm going to think that this darker scheme *is* green. > >There are definitely plenty of photos (just check the Datafile and the >Squadron book) showing EIII's that are too dark to be clear doped >linen. But wouldn't it have made more sense that <> EIII's started off >as clear doped, then the darker color was applied later? It only seems >logical to follow the path of least resistance, i.e., that it's a lot easier >to paint a dark color over a light one than vice-versa. This would explain >the known variations from clear doped AC - whether it's the green(?) or >other dark color seen in photos of some German EIII's, the alleged green >Austro-Hungarian EIII's, or the red-brown(?) Turkish EIII's. Still, there are enough photos of eindeckers with the "dark" scheme which still display the original "factory" serial numbers to at least suggest that the "dark" scheme might be an orginal "factory" application - after all, having overpainted the fuselage with a "dark" color, why would anyone bother to repaint the original "factory" serial numbers in the exact style of the original Fokker serial numbers? A "factory" application of the "dark' color seems more logical - and see the photo in the "Austo-Hungarian Army Aircraft of World War One" book of the "freshly painted Fokker 03.91 (M 16) upon its arrival at the Aspern test center". While not an Eindecker, this a/c is decidely NOT doped clear fabric. The suggestion of red-browns for the Turkish Eindeckers is a new one for me but one that, on first blush, seems not illogical. Is this your own surmise or something you've seen a reference to someplace? Clearly though, at least _some_ of the Turkish Eindeckers are much too dark to have been doped clear linen. Ah, a "ponderable", fer sure. No one said this was supposed to be easy. -- - Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org - "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:42:00 +0000 From: Pedro Soares To: wwi Subject: Re: I'm back Message-ID: <3326A498.12E9@anaep.pt> Al The negs are on their way. Expect 5 days for delivery. Pedro ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:20:01 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Button design (fwd) Message-ID: <199703121320.IAA17308@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > From rojo1@concentric.net Wed Mar 12 02:14:39 1997 > Allan: > > Here's my preliminary design for a D'Annunzio button. Text still > needs some tweaking, but one can see the general idea. Perhaps you > could post it somewhere the members of the list could see it? I have > attached the graphic as a uuencoded transparent GIF 89a file. > > Rob Rob, I put the image up on the News, news, NEWS! section of the WWW page so the rest of the list could get a look. We'll find a more permanent home for it when we get a final draft decided on. -Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:36:26 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Monday, 12 March 1917, Paris, St Just, Raoenel Message-ID: <332721DA.13E2@host.dmsc.net> 952. Rainy after noon time. Left Hotel about nine with the Major and walked downtown with him. Did some shopping and went in to see Mr Hedin at the office of the Brooklyn Daily Eagle afterwards and he took me to lunch with him. Had to hurry afterwards to get to the Gare de Nord to take the 1:15 train back to St Just. There before 4 o'clock and car was in town and took me out to camp. Found letter from Rivers. Writes that he has been on the Granite State as junior officer of the deck ever since the break between the States and Germany. They are doing guard work around the bridges and important places of the city there. President Wilson has not only given the order for all U.S. merchant vessels to go armed for defense against the German U-boats but to fire on any submarine seen without a bit of warning, which is only right considering that the U-boats do that same thing. Major Parker said this morning that he thought war is a sure thing very soon. Should we be called by our country in case of war to become instructors over in the U.S. Aviation schools he says it would be wisest to accept. We'd be needed in that capacity without any doubt. Don't know whether I'd like to go back to do such work. I'd rather stay and do my bit in active service on this front. Wrote a letter to Cousin Hugh before leaving the Hotel this a.m. telling him to let me know when he can get into Paris on leave so I can run in at the same time if possible and be with him. Bagdad has been captured by the British forces invading Persia. from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:00:41 -0600 From: "Eli Geher" To: Subject: Re: slightly off topic query Message-ID: <199703121801.MAA19855@sh1.ro.com> I dug out some slides I took in 1978 at the Glenn Curtiss Museum in Hammondsport, NY. Their Oriole at that time lacked wings, but had the tail installed. The fuselage is varnished wood with some paint trim. The fabric is painted a cream color, although I would hesitate to guess at any exact color match, since I don't recall either the film or lighting conditions. Another area of concern would involve the restoration standards of the museum. Still, it represents a good starting point and was purported to be the "standard" factory finish. I would concur with Chares Hart's opinion that unpainted fabric is not likely by the post-war period. Its hard to think of an example of a late war production machine that was delivered with an unpigmented finish. Eli Geher ---------- > From: Valenciano . Jose > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: slightly off topic query > Date: Tuesday, March 11, 1997 10:51 PM > > > What were the colors of the CURTISS ORIOLE as it left the factory? > > >From the photos: > All fabric areas light colored, clear doped maybe? > Fuselage is dark colored, dark stained wood maybe? > Wheels, light colored. > > This aircraft flew here in the Philippines. > I only have very general 3 views with an inline engine and rounded > wingtips and horizontal tail. > > The one that flew here had a Jenny engine, square tips and tail. > > So, anyone out there know the colours of this bird? > > Ok, ok, it's not exactly WWI but it was produced just after the war. > > It looks very much like a German 2-seater due to it's ply fuselage. > > ********************************************************************* > > Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, > joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist > tel. (632) 921-26-75 > Metro-Manila, Philippines > > "The more you know, the more you don't know." > > ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:16:43 +0000 From: "Erik" To: wwi Subject: Re: Button design (fwd) Message-ID: <199703121832.KAA12094@emerald.oz.net> > > Here's my preliminary design for a D'Annunzio button. Text still > > needs some tweaking, but one can see the general idea. Perhaps you > > could post it somewhere the members of the list could see it? I have > > attached the graphic as a uuencoded transparent GIF 89a file. > I put the image up on the News, news, NEWS! section of the WWW page so > the rest of the list could get a look. We'll find a more permanent home for > it when we get a final draft decided on. > Rob, excellent pin! I'll vote for this one! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:37:40 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Button design (fwd) Message-ID: >> > Here's my preliminary design for a D'Annunzio button. Text still >> > needs some tweaking, but one can see the general idea. Perhaps you >> > could post it somewhere the members of the list could see it? I have >> > attached the graphic as a uuencoded transparent GIF 89a file. > >> I put the image up on the News, news, NEWS! section of the WWW page so >> the rest of the list could get a look. We'll find a more permanent home for >> it when we get a final draft decided on. >> > Rob, excellent pin! I'll vote for this one! It has my vote as well. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:30:09 -0500 From: aero@baynet.net (Jim Lyzun) To: wwi Subject: Re: Button design (fwd) Message-ID: <199703122030.PAA14152@focus.baynet.net> The pin (button?)design looks good. And I may even get to the Nats to pick one up. Jim Lyzun ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:39:45 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: The Pin Message-ID: <199703122039.PAA18761@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Here's an Idea: Get the image from the pin (with the URLs) onto a business card size and print them out on a laser printer. Cut a few out and when someone says: "WWI on the net! Where?" GIVE THEM ONE! -Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:33:58 -0600 From: "William B. Bacon, Jr." To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: The Pin Message-ID: <01BC2EFA.DECFE700@ESPRESSO.NETJAVA.NET> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2EFA.DED90EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al, The pin and your idea for a business card is super. Cheers, Bill Bill Bacon wbacon@netjava.net ---------- From: Allan Wright Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 2:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: The Pin Here's an Idea: Get the image from the pin (with the URLs) onto a business card size and print them out on a laser printer. Cut a few out and when someone says: "WWI on the net! Where?" GIVE THEM ONE! -Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! 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Excellent job! It's the right look. One question: can the title read something like "WWI Aviation on the 'Net" rather than just "WWI on the Net"? I know that the image shows planes, but there's nothing like clarity. Once again, great job. This idea has really come together. Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:49:24 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: The Button Message-ID: Kevin, >>It's the right look. One question: can the title read something like "WWI >>Aviation on the 'Net" rather than just "WWI on the Net"? I know that the >>image shows planes, but there's nothing like clarity. Though the button shows an aviation related subject - the WW1 list is actually NOT just aviation - it only seems that way most of the time. If anything, we should emphasise that. But FWIW, I think it's fine, if obscure to most everyone outside our coterie Regards Shane > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:03:28 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: RE: The Pin Message-ID: <199703130008.TAA03724@newman.concentric.net> > > Get the image from the pin (with the URLs) onto a business card size > and print them out on a laser printer. Cut a few out and when someone says: > "WWI on the net! Where?" GIVE THEM ONE! > > -Al We could also print the button images onto self-adhesive label stock for instant pins. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:32:47 +0000 From: "Erik" To: wwi Subject: more EIII stuff Message-ID: <199703130048.QAA10825@emerald.oz.net> Bill contiues heroically: > Still, there are enough photos of eindeckers with the "dark" > scheme which still display the original "factory" serial numbers > to at least suggest that the "dark" scheme might be an orginal > "factory" application - after all, having overpainted the fuselage > with a "dark" color, why would anyone bother to repaint the original > "factory" serial numbers in the exact style of the original Fokker > serial numbers? A "factory" application of the "dark' color seems > more logical - and see the photo in the "Austo-Hungarian Army > Aircraft of World War One" book of the "freshly painted Fokker > 03.91 (M 16) upon its arrival at the Aspern test center". While > not an Eindecker, this a/c is decidely NOT doped clear fabric. > True, true. But, let me add two more unusual Eindeckers into the pot. Both appear in Harleyford's Richtofen & Flying Circus, in case anyone has it. On pp.22 we see a picture of E.II 46/15. The fuselage is covered in what rather appears to be natural linen. But, look at the wings. Clearly, these are *much* darker, and the shading is not explained by the angle of the light or some such observation. Furthermore, pending that one may trust the quality of the photo's reproduction (which is far from certain), it may also be that the wings are *irregularly* dark, implying some sort of camouflauge. Curious.... And then there is the outright bizzarre machine on pp.16-- what is claimed to be a Pfalz E.IV (can't see the engine to be sure). This machine is covered in some kind of large-ish pattern unusual lozenge! What on earth!? Its serial no. is covered, so no further identification seems possible. Anyone care to speculate on these two? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 18:27:26 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Pascha Albatrosen Message-ID: <9702128582.AA858220210@mx.Ricochet.net> Having finally bagged a couple of Smer Albatraii 'Trop', I'm now perusing my meager refs on Palestine species. From C&C and an unspecified source, it seems that some D.IIIs (such as D.636/17) may have been feldgrau overall with natural linen or light blue undersurfaces. Some DVs with late markings (such as D.5359) on the other hand are seen sporting either dark varnished or red-brown fuselages with standard grau cowling, covers, louvers, etc. Anyone with photo refs of Macedonian Alb.s? Mark et al, you are all welcome to chime in on this. Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:26:24, -0500 From: NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) To: wwi Subject: Re: more EIII stuff Message-ID: <199703130226.VAA176232@mime4.prodigy.com> -- [ From: Kenneth Hagerup * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Erik writes, > True, true. But, let me add two more unusual Eindeckers into the pot. Both > appear in Harleyford's Richtofen & Flying Circus, in case anyone has it. > On pp.22 we see a picture of E.II 46/15. The fuselage is covered in what > rather appears to be natural linen. But, look at the wings. Clearly, these are > *much* darker, and the shading is not explained by the angle of the light or > some such observation. Furthermore, pending that one may trust the quality of > the photo's reproduction (which is far from certain), it may also be that the > wings are *irregularly* dark, implying some sort of camouflauge. Curious.... > And then there is the outright bizzarre machine on pp.16-- what is claimed > to be a Pfalz E.IV (can't see the engine to be sure). This machine is covered > in some kind of large-ish pattern unusual lozenge! What on earth!? Its serial > no. is covered, so no further identification seems possible. Anyone care to > speculate on these two? The photo of the aircraft on page 16 looks a bit like a fake to me. The background and the aircraft look as though they were from two separate photos. Perhaps the product of some post war photographic trickery? While I'm skeptical about the Pfalz, the I think the Fokker E.II on page 22 definitely shows a darker color on the upper wing surfaces. The angle of the elevators makes it difficult to determine if their color is the same as the wings or the fuselage. Ken -- Kenneth Hagerup 11419 South 43rd Ave Omaha, NE 68123 npwe28a@prodigy.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:42:57 +1000 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'" Subject: RE: more EIII stuff Message-ID: Erik, > >> And then there is the outright bizzarre machine on pp.16-- what is >>claimed to be a Pfalz E.IV (can't see the engine to be sure). This >>machine is covered in some kind of large-ish pattern unusual lozenge! >>What on earth!? Its serial no. is covered, so no further >>identification seems possible. Anyone care to speculate on these two? There's a picture of what is thought to be a Pfalz E.VI in the datafile which has a large hand painted loz pattern painted on it. I don't have the volume with me (at work) but IIRC it's called the Rhiemschnieder lozenge pattern (or summat similar) In any case - an experimental finish to evaluate loz cam, predating the arrival of printed loz fabric. Anyone got the datafile to check my memory. Anyone want to do my work this afternoon so I can go home and check for myself? Regards >Shane > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 01:08:58 -0500 From: "S.M. Head" To: wwi Subject: More on The Pin / Suggestion Message-ID: <9703130056.aa04746@mail.iapc.net> >> >> Get the image from the pin (with the URLs) onto a business card size >> and print them out on a laser printer. Cut a few out and when someone says: >> "WWI on the net! Where?" GIVE THEM ONE! >> I have not been following this thread as closely as I should have, but it seems that the idea ought to work for all of our model contests, not just nationals. I'd love to be able to locate a few locals by noticing the buttuon. We;ve got a regional coming up and the buttons would surely not be lonely! How about it? Start wearing them everywhere? Scott H ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Scott M. Head (smh@iapc.net) IPMS/USA #32841 "Make it idiot proof - IPMS/Houston Scale Model Forum and someone will make a better idiot!" http://web-hou.iapc.net/~smh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 464 *********************