WWI Digest 449 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: New Releases by barrett@iplink.net (barrett) 2) feral soldiers by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 3) Re: Lozenge application techniques by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 4) Re: US roundels by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 5) Re: Eduard Pfalz by barrett@iplink.net (barrett) 6) Above The Trenches by barrett@iplink.net (barrett) 7) Re[2]: New Releases by "Shelley Goodwin" 8) Re: Eduard Pfalz by Carlos Valdes 9) Re: Eduard Pfalz by phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) 10) Re: New Releases by Sandy Adam 11) RE: No. 3 Squadron, AFC incident by Sandy Adam 12) Re: Eduard Pfalz by "Shelley Goodwin" 13) Re: Above The Trenches by michel.lefort@ping.be (Michel LEFORT) 14) Re: Above The Trenches by michel.lefort@ping.be (Michel LEFORT) 15) Brisfit Tailplane Trim - The FINAL ANSWER. by Sandy Adam 16) Re: Eduard Pfalz by barrett@iplink.net (barrett) 17) Re: Eduard Pfalz by Carlos Valdes 18) Re: Eduard Pfalz by phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) 19) Re: Feral soldiers, Ghost planes, WWI mythology by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 20) Brisfit Tailplane Trim by "William B. Bacon, Jr." 21) Re: Feral soldiers, Ghost planes, WWI mythology by "Rob " 22) Re: Brisfit Tailplane Trim - The FINAL ANSWER? by "Rob " 23) Re: Brisfit Tailplane Trim - The FINAL ANSWER. by Erik Pilawskii 24) Re: Brisfit Tailplane Trim - The FINAL ANSWER. by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 25) Re: Re[2]: New Releases by mbittner@juno.com 26) Getting along by mbittner@juno.com 27) Re: Feral soldiers, Ghost planes, WWI mythology by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 28) Rep : Re: Nieuport request by Fportier@aol.com 29) Re: Lozenge application techniques by mbittner@juno.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 22:51:28 -0500 From: barrett@iplink.net (barrett) To: wwi Subject: Re: New Releases Message-ID: >On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 02:50:05 -0500 lothar@ncw.net (mark) writes: > >>A Halb. DII from BLUE MAX??? >>YEEEEEEEEEHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!! >> >>Sounds like someone over there's been listening! :-) > >Hey, if that was the case, then we would also have one from >Pegasus in 1/72nd!!! Just as needed as the Blue Max - sorry, >but I'm stingy about price, and those Skybirds 86 Halb's seem >wayyy to pricy for me. > >Matt I second that! When do we see an affordable 1/72 scale Halb DII?! Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:50:01 -0500 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: feral soldiers Message-ID: <199703010250.VAA01632@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 01:37 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Rob wrote: For what it is worth, >WW1 was fertile ground for mythology. I used to work for a >literary/scholarly journal. We published an article that traced a >whole raft of generally believed, remarkably consistent accounts of >feral soldiers haunting no-man's land. They were supposed to be the >maddened remnants of wiped out units from both sides, reduced by >horror to the level of cave-men. They were supposed to prey on the >wounded of both sides, sneak into dugouts to steal food, and generally >run around acting nuts. Whole battalions of gaunt, starving, savages >were imagined. It's been a few years, but I seem to remember that the >author traced all of these widely held "true sightings" to a single, fictional short >story that appeared in a magazine or some such, suggestion, and the >spectre of mutiny in the ranks during 1917 and 1918. > >Now, the plane flying itself has a powerful emotional appeal that >goes well beyond the fact that it probably can happen at least >occasionally. I was trained in medieval literature, and the faithful >horse carrying its dead master home from the field of battle is >almost archetypal. It has great appeal to the newspapers. Here in >the US, I can remember several widely publicized instances of airplanes >flying long distances with incapacitated pilots or no pilots (after >ejections), even though there is nothing all that unusual in this in >the age of autopilots. A few years ago I read a novel based on the same "legend". If anyone is interested, I'll look up the title and author. Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:50:03 -0500 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Lozenge application techniques Message-ID: <199703010250.VAA01638@pease1.sr.unh.edu> >>Joseph Gentile writes: > >>>I've run into a little snag whilst laying on the lozenge for my Hannover and >>>I hoped that I could solicit some help from the group. I am having problems >>>applying the lozenge decals to the separate/detached control surface items I also have been using the paint underneath the lozenge technique. I've been partial to the lozenge from Americal and have used a dark blue underneath the decal. It comes very close to matching the dark blue on the decal and when there a tear/seam/hole etc it covers it up nicely. Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:50:05 -0500 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: US roundels Message-ID: <199703010250.VAA01650@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 07:24 PM 2/24/97 -0500, mbittner@juno.com wrote: >Well, if they're either Blue Rider, or Americal, I would like >1/72nd ones. More specifically, ones that will fit a 1/72nd >Nieuport 28. If they're Superscale, don't bother. I already >have a sheet of those. TIA! They are 1/72 Blue Rider from a sheet on US aircraft...for some unknown reason they don't have a SPAD or N. 28. They do have ones for a Hanriot that might work. If you want it, let me know and I'll mail it to your regular address if you send it. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 22:54:24 -0500 From: barrett@iplink.net (barrett) To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Pfalz Message-ID: Carlos informed us: >Guys, > According to a post on RMS, the Eduard Pfalz D.III is indeed out and in >modelers' hands. Finally! I hope the Albatros D.III does not take as >long. What scale? Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 23:00:19 -0500 From: barrett@iplink.net (barrett) To: wwi Subject: Above The Trenches Message-ID: Saw a couple of copies of this great book on clearance downtown. Good condition. $30 US. Anyone want me to pick them up a copy and mail it? Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 19:27:08 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Re[2]: New Releases Message-ID: <9701288571.AA857186891@mx.Ricochet.net> Matt, Glad I'm not the only tightwad (value conscious?) modeler on the list! Riordan ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: New Releases Author: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu at Internet Date: 2/28/97 6:27 PM On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 02:50:05 -0500 lothar@ncw.net (mark) writes: >A Halb. DII from BLUE MAX??? >YEEEEEEEEEHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!! > >Sounds like someone over there's been listening! :-) Hey, if that was the case, then we would also have one from Pegasus in 1/72nd!!! Just as needed as the Blue Max - sorry, but I'm stingy about price, and those Skybirds 86 Halb's seem wayyy to pricy for me. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 22:39:06 -0500 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Pfalz Message-ID: <3317A4DA.198B@conted.gatech.edu> > Carlos informed us: > >Guys, > > According to a post on RMS, the Eduard Pfalz D.III is indeed out and in > >modelers' hands. Finally! I hope the Albatros D.III does not take as > >long. > > What scale? > > Kevin. Glorious 1/48 :-) Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:46:53 -0600 From: phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) To: Subject: Re: Eduard Pfalz Message-ID: <19970301040004.AAA9258@default> What retailers have the Pfalz, and how much ? Give us some details! Is it worth the two year delay? I've got a couple of friends who've been waiting to build the kit since it was announced. Available answers to the previous questions my just save my life.... P Howard ---------- > From: Carlos Valdes > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Eduard Pfalz > Date: Friday, February 28, 1997 9:51 PM > > > Carlos informed us: > > >Guys, > > > According to a post on RMS, the Eduard Pfalz D.III is indeed out and in > > >modelers' hands. Finally! I hope the Albatros D.III does not take as > > >long. > > > > What scale? > > > > Kevin. > > Glorious 1/48 :-) > Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:02:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: New Releases Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, mark wrote: > >Blue Max (48) -Camel @ 21.99GBP, Halb DII & Roland CII @ 24.99GBP. > > A Halb. DII from BLUE MAX??? YEEEEEEEEEHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!! Mark, my head is covered in shame. I apologise profusely - somehow I typed DII when I should have typed Cl.II. You can see the price will be same as the whale -ie two-seater price. I am nailing my head to the table as you read this. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:06:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: No. 3 Squadron, AFC incident Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Bill Shatzer wrote: > >Well, yes, but I summarised the account and omitted to say is that the > >first crew to come to their aid had tried to get there attention for > >some time and failed before deciding that Sandy had gone back to what he > >was doing and going on their own way. AND that Hughes radio > >transmissions had stopped at that time and never recommenced. > > What? Why would they be trying to get their attention? And how? > Firing Very pistols? Waving of arms? Shouting "halloo, there"? No by shouting "Tell us you are dead, otherwise some stubborn bugger 80 years from now will argue till he is blue in the face that you are alive and well although your brains are on the top wing" obviously. Sandy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 20:48:28 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Pfalz Message-ID: <9701288571.AA857192051@mx.Ricochet.net> DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@#$%&*! Riordan ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Eduard Pfalz Author: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu at Internet Date: 2/28/97 2:20 PM Guys, According to a post on RMS, the Eduard Pfalz D.III is indeed out and in modelers' hands. Finally! I hope the Albatros D.III does not take as long. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 07:41:28 GMT From: michel.lefort@ping.be (Michel LEFORT) To: wwi Subject: Re: Above The Trenches Message-ID: <3317dd5d.75840972@relay.ping.be> On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:57:20 -0500, you wrote: >Saw a couple of copies of this great book on clearance downtown. Good >condition. $30 US. Anyone want me to pick them up a copy and mail it? > Yes, I'm interested in a copy. Just tell me how much I have to send you to cover the costs of the book and postage. Regards. -- Michel Lefort - Braine-l'Alleud, Belgium IPMS Belgium Foreign Liaison Officer (member F147) http://www.ping.be/IPMS Plastic Modelling is holding History in your Hand ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 07:44:34 GMT From: michel.lefort@ping.be (Michel LEFORT) To: wwi Subject: Re: Above The Trenches Message-ID: <331addf0.75988291@relay.ping.be> On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:57:20 -0500, you wrote: >Saw a couple of copies of this great book on clearance downtown. Good >condition. $30 US. Anyone want me to pick them up a copy and mail it? > Sorry for my previous post. I hit the send button before realising that I had not changed the To field. Apologies to all. Regards. -- Michel Lefort - Braine-l'Alleud, Belgium IPMS Belgium Foreign Liaison Officer (member F147) http://www.ping.be/IPMS Plastic Modelling is holding History in your Hand ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:32:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Brisfit Tailplane Trim - The FINAL ANSWER. Message-ID: The Definitive Answer I have in front of me Volume 4 in the RAF Museum Series, entitled: British Military Aircraft of World War One - The Official Technical and Rigging Notes for RFC and RNAS Fighting and Training Aeroplanes, 1914-1918. Published by Arms & Armour Press, my volume is dated 1976 and I see it cost me 5.95GBP at the time. Page 78. - The Bristol Fighter F2B. (I - 190HP Rolls-Royce, II - 200HP Hispano-Suiza) "Manufacturers Order of Erection." Section 6 -" Tail Plane Actuation Gear...." Page 80. -" Tail Plane Actuation Gear (see Figs 9, 10 & 11).- The tail Plane is adjusted by means of a large Hand Lever, working on a quadrant,on the right hand side of the pilot's seat. This Lever raises or lowers the Tail Plane Front Spar. When the handle of the Lever is raised , the Leading Edge of the Tail Plane is depressed and vice versa. The total movement of the Leading Edge of the Tail Plane should be about 2 in. When the Leading Edge of the Tail Plane is midway between its highest and lowest positions it should be about to 3/4in. below the centre line of the Side of the Fuselage. In other words when the Tail Plane (and also therefore the Hand Lever) are in their mean positions the Tail Plane should have a negative Incidence of about to 3/4in. The Actuating Cables between the Hand Lever and the Bell Cranks should be kept fairly taut. Care should be taken that the Turnbuckles on the Bell Crank Ends are so adjusted that the right and left hand Bell Cranks are parallel to one another, top to top and bottom to bottom, otherwise there will be a tendency to cant the Tail Plane Front Spar." Figs 9, 10 & 11 show close up diagrams of the hand lever, the bell cranks and the tail plane floating bearer respectively. The original manual is dated 9th July 1917. Bill, will you please read this again, now will you read it another fifty times. Now will you repeat "I, Bill Shatzer, am wrong" the same number of times. Shane is absolutely correct in his assumptions, as I am sure the rest of us could see from the beginning. Your statement that there was NO, (your capitals), means of trimming WW1 aircraft is further blown to shreds by the fact that the Technical Manuals on the Sopwith Strutter (as I have already shown), the RE8 and, last but not least, the SE5A all have similar adjustment controls. The SE is interesting in that the strut beside the control wheel has the word "Normal" marked at the wheel's neutral position. With this track record, I am afraid your position on other recent threads - Lothar von Richthofen's report of flying his plane with his hands outside the cockpit and the account of the 3Sq AFC fatalities - lacks any authority. I am not sure if the book (ISBN 0 85368 261 5) is still available and I am afraid I do not have scanning facilities here, but if anybody has specific queries I would be delighted to relay any answers it might contain. The subjects included are: Avro 504, A-W FK3, FK8, BE12, 12a, 2c, 2d, 2e, F2b, JN4a, DH4, 5, 9, FE2b, Martinsyde Scout, MF Longhorn, Shorthorn, Nie Scout, RE7, RE8, SE5a, Strutter, Dolphin, Pup, 2F1 Camel, F1 Camel, Triplane, SPAD7, FB9. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 07:00:05 -0500 From: barrett@iplink.net (barrett) To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Pfalz Message-ID: >> Carlos informed us: >> >Guys, >> > According to a post on RMS, the Eduard Pfalz D.III is indeed >>out and in >> >modelers' hands. Finally! I hope the Albatros D.III does not take as >> >long. >> >> What scale? >> >> Kevin. > > Glorious 1/48 :-) > Carlos Aaaarrrghhh! Drat... Will the pain never end? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 08:45:43 -0500 From: Carlos Valdes To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Pfalz Message-ID: <33183307.6138@conted.gatech.edu> Paul, I haven't seen the kit, only read online about its being available. According to it's latest e-newsletter, The Supply Depot has it in stock for $18.75. The markings included are for Alfred Lenz and Rudolf Berthold (again). I assume that we have at least a D.IIIa here, or a kit that can be built into either subtype of this fighter. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 09:09:00 -0600 From: phoward@abilene.com (Paul Howard) To: Subject: Re: Eduard Pfalz Message-ID: <19970301152501.AAA1079@default> Thanks for the information. I'll see wha tI can did up from them. Have a great day. Paul ---------- > From: Carlos Valdes > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Eduard Pfalz > Date: Saturday, March 01, 1997 7:58 AM > > Paul, > I haven't seen the kit, only read online about its being available. > According to it's latest e-newsletter, The Supply Depot has it in stock > for $18.75. The markings included are for Alfred Lenz and Rudolf > Berthold (again). I assume that we have at least a D.IIIa here, or a kit > that can be built into either subtype of this fighter. > Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 11:21:30 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Feral soldiers, Ghost planes, WWI mythology Message-ID: <331881BA.12D9@host.dmsc.net> Someone from this list (sorry, I've forgotten who) posted some ideas about the mythic aspects of our ghost plane thread, and I cross-posted it to the WWI history list, resulting in the following post (with my response): Micheal wrote: > > What about the 'ghost plane' that Hauptman Boelcke and other Jasta 2 pilots > were supposed to have come across? The story fits nicely into the mythic > scenario, perhaps too nicely. Are there cross references? British casualty > info for that day that support the story? The only source I've read is > Floyd Gibbons, and I can't regard Mr. Gibbons as an unimpeachable source. As it happens, this is the incident I mentioned to the modeling-aviation list, hoping someone with more sources at hand than I could verify it-- so far no one has. > Mythic stories have a life -not- dependent on facts because they fill a > human need. The inhuman savagery of the war is easily personified by > caveman-like feral soldiers. The very idea of a 'no man's land' that > belonged to neither side -- a land beyond the reach of civilization -- > almost begs to be inhabited by uncivilized men. Paul Fussel, of course, wrote most perceptively about this particular myth, and Reginald Hill based an entire novel upon it: NO MAN'S LAND (NY: St Martins, 1985). > War doesn't respect heros. They die just as cruelly and pointlessly as > 'lesser' men. This doesn't fit human notions of 'fair.' Anthropomorphized > planes, like horses bringing home dead heros, add a dignity or justice to > war. This shows up too with stories of heros who don't die the common > death, but just 'are no more,' like Elijah. > > The larger mythic saga is also fascinating. Sagas need heros and > villians. If they aren't there sufficiently in reality (real men and women > can be so...ordinary, most of the time), people will elevate and demote > characters as needed to fill the roles. Hard facts are usually disregarded > once the character has taken mythic form. Hard facts aren't what's wanted. > Yes, very nicely put. Besides Fussell's work, does anyone know of studies devoted to the mythology of the Western Front? Mike Iavorone, did you find any good sources for the Angel of Mons story? During the English Civil War, on a particular night over a particular town, an enormous ghostly battle took place among the clouds between the spirits of dead soldiers from both sides, and this was reputedly witnessed and reported by a large number of people, so perhaps all wars tend to give birth to myth-- but I suspect the Great War more than other wars, as it seemed, at the time, in so many ways, apocalyptic. Bradley ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:24:46 -0600 From: "William B. Bacon, Jr." To: "'Multiple recipients of list'" Subject: Brisfit Tailplane Trim Message-ID: <01BC262A.DC67BFC0@NJ061.NETJAVA.NET> Sandy made mention of the RAF Museum's reprint of WWI rigging manuals. = I have a copy of same and can provide photo copies for specific a/c. = Will need yor snail mail address. Cheers, Bill Bill Bacon wbacon@netjava.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:12:19 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: Re: Feral soldiers, Ghost planes, WWI mythology Message-ID: <199703011716.MAA18083@cliff.cris.com> Bradley writes: >Besides Fussell's work, does anyone know of > studies devoted to the mythology of the Western Front? See Cecil D. Eby, "The 'Ghouls' of No-Man's Land," English Language Notes(26:1 [September 1988]):67-69. This is the essay I mentioned in my original post. Doris Lessing also wrote a brief recollection of her father that mentioned the Angel of Mons, but I have no exact cite. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:29:51 +0000 From: "Rob " To: wwi Subject: Re: Brisfit Tailplane Trim - The FINAL ANSWER? Message-ID: <199703011734.MAA25107@cliff.cris.com> I find stridency irresisitable. Sandy writes: > Section 6 -" Tail Plane Actuation Gear...." > Page 80. -" Tail Plane Actuation Gear (see Figs 9, 10 & 11).- The tail > Plane is adjusted by means of a large Hand Lever, working on a quadrant,on > the right hand side of the pilot's seat. This Lever raises or lowers the > Tail Plane Front Spar. When the handle of the Lever is raised , the > Leading Edge of the Tail Plane is depressed and vice versa. > The total movement of the Leading Edge of the Tail Plane should be about 2 > in. When the Leading Edge of the Tail Plane is midway between its highest and > lowest positions it should be about to 3/4in. below the centre line of > the Side of the Fuselage. In other words when the Tail Plane (and also > therefore the Hand Lever) are in their mean positions the Tail Plane > should have a negative Incidence of about to 3/4in. Unless we are to picture the observer crawling along the fuselage in the slipstream, ruler in hand, I think that this passage actually suggests that the tailplane was to be trimmed ON THE GROUND, with one man in the cockpit and the other by the tail (this, of course, leaves one to ask why the control was in the cockpit, but that is another question). How else would one measure the 3/4 inch? Note that the rigging notes say nothng about trimming the tail plane until the plane will fly hands-off, as a modern manual might. As I indicated in my last post, the method of actuating the tailplane (from the front spar) also suggests that adjustments were not meant to be made when there were aerodynamic loads on the tailplane. > Bill, will you please read this again, now will you read it another fifty > times. Now will you repeat "I, Bill Shatzer, am wrong" the same number of > times. If I were Bill, I'd hang in there. Nobody said tailplanes weren't adjustable--only that they were not, for the most part, adjustable in flight. Remember that we look back on '14-'18 from a vantage point that takes modern trimming devices for granted. We tend to read more into contemporary descriptions than we should. Back then, when no one had seen or thought of an in-flight trimmable tailplane or trim tab, someone might easily say that the tailplane was adjustable without imagining that anyone would think it could be adjusted in flight. Finally, I am puzzled by the acrimonious tone here. This is an interesting technical-historical discussion. But unless I missed something, nobody's manhood (womanhood? personhood?) is being questioned here. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:15:13 -0800 (PST) From: Erik Pilawskii To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Brisfit Tailplane Trim - The FINAL ANSWER. Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, Sandy Adam wrote: > The Definitive Answer > ...Well, this really does tell the tale, doesn't it, Lads.... > Page 80. -" Tail Plane Actuation Gear (see Figs 9, 10 & 11).- The tail > Plane is adjusted by means of a large Hand Lever, working on a quadrant,on > the right hand side of the pilot's seat. This Lever raises or lowers the > Tail Plane Front Spar. When the handle of the Lever is raised , the > Leading Edge of the Tail Plane is depressed and vice versa. > The total movement of the Leading Edge of the Tail Plane should be about 2 > in. And, all of this tells us not at all about the use of this control. I have the sneaking hunch that the mechanism was designed for use on the ground. *Of course*, I could be wrong, but in absence of any further evidence I find your opening statement to be a reflection of your general conduct in this matter. However, be that as it may, there are a number of sanguine points uncovered: a) even if this is an in-flight control, it manipulates the elevators, ONLY. Hopelessly insufficient to achieve hands off trimming in such a machine. b) also, even IF it had trimming controls for the ailerons and rudder, it *still* would be insufficient for anything other than the briefest hands-free flight, as the changes in trim requirement would be far too regular, and noting that these controls do not operate small tab surfaces but merely 'grab' the cables (whether control or rigging), the 'play' and tendency to slacken would be formidable. c) and, should all of these RFC/RAF machines feature such in-flight controls, it certainly marks them as unusual for the period. Of course, I find that mightily unlikely. > > Bill, will you please read this again, now will you read it another fifty > times. Now will you repeat "I, Bill Shatzer, am wrong" the same number of > times. Shane is absolutely correct in his assumptions, as I am sure the > rest of us could see from the beginning. Even if, for the sake of argument, we assume you are correct, your replies leave much to be desired. Might I suggest that it is your attitude that in fact requires an adjustment lever. Without maintaining at least the semblance of mature conversational graces, I can't foresee anyone taking you seriously.... Erik :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "If you're not living Life on the edge, you're taking up too much room!" .............................................................................. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:38:26 -0800 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Brisfit Tailplane Trim - The FINAL ANSWER. Message-ID: <199703011938.AA27320@ednet1.orednet.org> In our last episode, our intrepid adventurer, Sandy was writing: -snips- >Bill, will you please read this again, now will you read it another fifty >times. Now will you repeat "I, Bill Shatzer, am wrong" the same number of >times. Shane is absolutely correct in his assumptions, as I am sure the >rest of us could see from the beginning. >Your statement that there was NO, (your capitals), means of trimming WW1 >aircraft is further blown to shreds by the fact that the Technical Manuals >on the Sopwith Strutter (as I have already shown), the RE8 and, last but >not least, the SE5A all have similar adjustment controls. The SE is >interesting in that the strut beside the control wheel has the word >"Normal" marked at the wheel's neutral position. Nonsense - please go back and reread what I wrote. My original comment was, I believe, to the effect, that I'd not read of any in-flight trimming mechanism on the F2.B before (true!) and that I was attempting to check that out. (also true!). Then, after I believe it was Shane pointed out some details on the RAF museum's F.2B, I checked my photos of that aircraft and agreed that, yep, that 'un has a trimming mechanism. I further stated that I looked at photos of post-war F2.Bs and saw the little trimming doohickey in many of those photos (true again!) but that I couldn't see the doohickey in any of my photos of WW1 F2.B's (once again absolutely correct!). I then restated the history of both the Shuttleworth F.2B and the RAF museum's F.2B to the effect that both were, or had been, Mk.II's and/ or Mk. III's at one time (also true, I think!) and SPECULATED that, perhaps, the adjustable horizontal tail trim was a Mk.II addition rather than a feature on the original WW1 F.2B. Now maybe my failure to see the doohickey on the WW1 photos is because I didn't look carefully enough (although, I just rechecked and I still can't see it) or (more likely) my photos are just of too poor a quality or taken at bad angles. But I do think everything I stated as fact is, indeed, factual and everything I stated as speculation and/or surmise was, indeed labeled as speculation and surmise. And, I do think speculation and surmise is fair enough, so long as it is identified as such. After all, we are never gonna have ALL the facts on any aspect of WW1 aviation - too much is lost in the mists of time and myth. If we are afraid to advance a new or different idea because we don't have ALL the facts, new or different ideas will never be advanced. And, if we stop advancing new or different ideas, we are going to stop learning. >With this track record, I am afraid your position on other recent threads >- Lothar von Richthofen's report of flying his plane with his hands >outside the cockpit and the account of the 3Sq AFC fatalities - lacks any >authority. Hold it son! This isn't a war, its a discussion. And returning a note of civility to this discussion would be most welcome. But I never claimed "authority" - I raised questions concerning the conclusions of others - in a non-personal manner, I hope. Raising questions about the conclusions of others is, and I hope will continue to be legitimate. Now, I don't think I expressed _any_ opinion on the Lothar vR story and you've confused me with someone else there. But, for the record, hands off flying off WW1 aircraft is certainly possible for short periods of time - several seconds, maybe as much as a minute if every thing is set up right and the air is quite calm. OK? And, as regards to the RE.8 incident, I continue to believe that it is far more likely, under the evidence so far presented, that the aircrew survived the initial combat and were later killed in an unwitnessed incident than that the aircraft flew 50 miles with a dead crew on board. Notice I only said "far more likely" - I don't claim it happened that way for separated by nearly 80 years from the actual incident we can never KNOW for certain what occurred but only what is more likely, based upon reasonable surmise on the available information. And this would remain true even if the aircraft REALLY DID fly 50 miles with a dead crew on board, the alternative explanation would still be more likely. Cheers and all, -- - Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org - "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 14:42:43 EST From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Re[2]: New Releases Message-ID: <19970301.134534.14414.1.mbittner@juno.com> On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 22:32:54 -0500 "Shelley Goodwin" writes: > Glad I'm not the only tightwad (value conscious?) modeler on the > list! To me, it's just ridiculous. There is no reason why a model that builds up to be a couple of inches need to cost this much. Sure, you could argue about cottage industry and all that, but in reality, there's no reason but greed. Why should Skybirds stuff cost $10 to $20 more than others? If you look at the cost of a Pegasus kit, I see no reason why the Skybirds should cost so much more. And then there's JMGT 1/72nd St.Chammond's. We'll leave that for another message. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 14:42:43 EST From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Getting along Message-ID: <19970301.134534.14414.0.mbittner@juno.com> Okay, gents. I need to step in here. If you don't like it, then hit the [delete] button. Now, this list has spawned a lot of great conversation. Even the "touchy" subjects have been dealt with rather "warmly" and with some humor - one in mind is the "scale war". We all know that people build in their own scale for their own reasons, and one is *not* better than the other (there, I've said it). So, with the recent threads on aircraft stability and BrisFit's adjustable tails, one would think that we're on Usenet or something. I don't like that. Not one bit. You see, with WW1 a/c, it's just about anybody's guess. There is not the amount of documentation as that "other" war, and things have been lost due to time. Be that as it may, we need to stop "slamming" each other, admit if we're wrong - if we actually are - and kiss and make up. Seriously. If we're not careful, we could drive people away, and our community is too small to lose people. Now come on: shake hands; hug; kiss, whatever, but let's get back to a friendly tone, and talk about items without shooting each other. Please. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 15:37:47 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Re: Feral soldiers, Ghost planes, WWI mythology Message-ID: <3318BDCB.66EB@host.dmsc.net> Rob wrote: > > Bradley writes: > > >Besides Fussell's work, does anyone know of > > studies devoted to the mythology of the Western Front? > > See Cecil D. Eby, "The 'Ghouls' of No-Man's Land," English Language > Notes(26:1 [September 1988]):67-69. > > This is the essay I mentioned in my original post. Doris Lessing > also wrote a brief recollection of her father that mentioned the > Angel of Mons, but I have no exact cite. Rob, Thanks very much, Eby's essay sounds fascinating. I'm sure I can track them both down easily. We have a lot of Lessing right here at the house. Bradley ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 14:58:08 -0500 (EST) From: Fportier@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Rep : Re: Nieuport request Message-ID: <970301145808_106881105@emout08.mail.aol.com> You'd be wrong not to build the Caproni, it is definitely not an easy project but the finished result is very spectacular. I would have had far less trouble if I had known where the difficulties lay: badly designed pe. parts, especially the bottom of the gunner's cage. If you use Aeroclub guns, Contrail struts and consider the pe. parts provided critically, the Caproni is not that bad. I hope I did not put you off. The kit is simply badly designed with lots of irritating faults, but the basic parts are quite OK. With good pe. parts and a more accurate decal sheet (the one in the box is full of errors) you'd have a first class kit. I am quite happy to have it in my collection and would be happy to add other Caproni giants (Triplane and Ca 5) Now there's a thought! Francois ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 15:13:20 EST From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Lozenge application techniques Message-ID: <19970301.141626.14414.4.mbittner@juno.com> On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:50:47 -0500 bucky@postoffice.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) writes: > I also have been using the paint underneath the lozenge > technique. I've been partial to the lozenge from Americal and > have used a dark blue underneath the decal. It comes very close > to matching the dark blue on the decal and when there a > tear/seam/hole etc it covers it up nicely. Who's blue, and what's the product code? Polly Scale, by chance? Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 449 *********************