WWI Digest 422 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Decals & separate control surfaces by Joseph Gentile 2) Colors! by aew (Allan Wright) 3) Future Floor Wax? by aew (Allan Wright) 4) Re: Decals & separate control surfaces by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 5) Re: Future Floor Wax? by "Pedro Soares" 6) Future Floor Wax? by Brian Nicklas 7) HitKit Albatrii by Brian Nicklas 8) Re: Decals & separate control surfaces by mbittner@juno.com 9) Re: Colors! by mbittner@juno.com 10) Re: Future Floor Wax? by mbittner@juno.com 11) Is there a good samaritan somewhere? ;-) by michel.lefort@ping.be (Michel LEFORT) 12) Re: Colors! by aew (Allan Wright) 13) Re[2]: Colors!/A-H Fokkers by "Shelley Goodwin" 14) Russian Civil War article by "Shelley Goodwin" 15) Re: Future Floor Wax? by "huggins@onramp.net" 16) Re: Decals & separate control surfaces by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 17) Dr.1 alignment by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 18) Re: Dr.1 alignment by mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca (Mark K. Nelson) 19) Re: Dr.1 alignment by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 20) Re: Re[2]: Colors!/A-H Fokkers by aew (Allan Wright) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:58:42 -0600 (CST) From: Joseph Gentile To: wwi Subject: Decals & separate control surfaces Message-ID: <199702031458.IAA08485@Walden.MO.NET> I feel as though I am about to ask the proverbial "dumb" question but here goes: Do I apply lozenge first then attach ailerons, etc. or vice versa? Second, when applying kruez do I slice the decal/tranny/deckle at the point of attachment between control surface and "wing" or do I use solvent and setting solutions? Thank you, Joe Gentile nb: KAE Hannover nl: AC Jobim, Wave (hoping for tropical weather) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:58:56 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Colors! Message-ID: <199702031458.JAA11994@pease1.sr.unh.edu> One question for me, one for a friend without net access. Anyone know the 'standard' color schemes for the following: For me: Siement-Schukert D-I (kitbashing a Revell Nieuport 17c) For friend: Fokker B.1 in Austrio-Hungarian service (yeah, building the Miekraft) Thanks, Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:11:39 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Future Floor Wax? Message-ID: <199702031611.LAA12283@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Here's a new one: I'm a diehard fan of Testor's Dullcote and Glosscote products, but they are harsh on the lungs so I'm considering using my airbrush to blow some Future Floor Was onto my models instead. I know some of you do this. Here's my questions: 1) What's the basic technique, thinning solution, ratio? 2) Can you do something to this to make it a flat (dullcote substitute) finish? 3) How waretproof is this finish? I sometimes dullcote in between painting and decal application to protect the paint from the decal setting solutions. Thanks, Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:14:34 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Decals & separate control surfaces Message-ID: Joe writes: >I feel as though I am about to ask the proverbial "dumb" question but here >goes: > >Do I apply lozenge first then attach ailerons, etc. or vice versa? > Remember that the direction of the pattern of lozenge fabric was usually different than the rest of the wing. For example, most Fokker a/c had bolt widths of fabric laid across the wing chordwise, the edges of the bolt being sewn to the adjacent one before covering the wing. Ailerons were covered separately, almost always in the span wise direction. "Dumb" questions are the ones that aren't asked. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:33:07 -0000 From: "Pedro Soares" To: Subject: Re: Future Floor Wax? Message-ID: <199702031639.QAA01525@wallana> ---------- > From: Allan Wright > Here's a new one: > I'm a diehard fan of Testor's Dullcote and Glosscote products, but they > are harsh on the lungs so I'm considering using my airbrush to blow > some Future Floor Was onto my models instead. I know some of you do this. > > Here's my questions: > > 1) What's the basic technique, thinning solution, ratio? > Hi All, I don't have that much of an experience with future but I've already used it several times for several different purposes and Iit always performed quite well. As to applying it you can choose between airbrushing (straight from the bottle, no dilution needed) or brush paint it. As a matter of fact brushing future is a snap and you don't even have to worry about brush marks because it's self-levelling. Just be sure to spread it evenly on the surface so as to not allow build-ups caused by running liquid (not sure if I'm explaining this right but if you don't understand let me know I'll try to be more clear...) > 2) Can you do something to this to make it a flat (dullcote substitute) finish? > No experience in this department other than spraying a flat coat on top of it to ensure an uniform flat finish. I've seen references to people mixing it with Tamya's flat to achieve a flat "varnish" though, but I believe you'll have to be very careful about the amount of flat you mix in because you can en up getting some frosting of the flat coat. > 3) How waterproof is this finish? I sometimes dullcote in between painting and > decal application to protect the paint from the decal setting solutions. > I believe it to be completely waterproof. Let me just tell you that on my last model I used future as a substitute for decal setting solution and I have to tell you that for me expensive decal setting stuff like super set and solva set or whatever are a thing of the past: 1- apply a coat of future over the last coat of paint and let it dry thoroughly 2- apply some more future to the place you are about to lay the decal on 3- apply the decal and press it on with a brush 4- apply some more future over the decal 5- let dry thoroughly 6- apply a final coat of varnish to even out the finish and that's it: no silvering of the carrier film and while it dries the future will suck the decal into the panel lines making it conform to the surface. HTH Pedro Soares pedro.soares@anaep.pt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 11:42:20 EST From: Brian Nicklas To: Subject: Future Floor Wax? Message-ID: <199702031645.LAA12512@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Al, Don't thin Future - apply straight from the bottle. Use a new bottle, less chance of any "stuff" floating around you don't want on the model. And don't shake or aggitate. Air bubbles are hard to get out. I've never heard of a flat agent to mix with the future. The only addititive I've heard of is using food coloring to tint Future for overhead cockpit glass green, auto glass grays, or reds/oranges/blues for police cars. After it hardens, I've never had anything leak or dissolve Future - but then I've never really tried to get it off, either. HTH - Brian PS - Clean the airbrush RIGHT AWAY! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 12:04:16 EST From: Brian Nicklas To: Subject: HitKit Albatrii Message-ID: <199702031707.MAA12649@pease1.sr.unh.edu> APC Hobbies had a mini-shop in College Park,Marylandon Sunday at the Holiday Inn. Bob Mills was there selling books and Meteor Productions had some tables as well. >From APC I picked up the Hit Kit Albatros D.III (Offag) ser 253 in 1/72 scale. Nice kit. APC price was $21.00, and in addition to the plastic, you get a photoetched fret with wheels, inner fuselage bulkheads, instrument panels and a bunch of little bits for the outerskin of the fuselage. There is a bunch of decals, including four strips of "sworl" camoflage, and markings for AH 253.64 (in sworl), AH 253.31, AH 253.117, AH 253.08 (personal, not Polish, markkings), AH 253.04, AH 253.05 (sworl), AH 253.06, AH 253.116, Yugoslav (serial unknown), Serbian 253.170 and Czech 253.116. Each decal appears to be printed on a seperate sheet, and the quality varies. The plastic has some flash, and looks to be between Pegasus and Meikraft in quality. The wings are not near as nice as the recent Pegasus Albatros wings, but then I think Chris Gannon's are hard to beat! Not a bad little kit, and APC had others, but I only got the one. Brian Nicklas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:30:41 EST From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Decals & separate control surfaces Message-ID: <19970203.123250.9062.2.mbittner@juno.com> On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:54:45 -0500 Joseph Gentile writes: > I feel as though I am about to ask the proverbial "dumb" > question but here goes: The only dumb question is the one that doesn't get asked. > Do I apply lozenge first then attach ailerons, etc. or vice > versa? Since Charles already ansered this, I'll just say "yes". ;-) > Second, when applying kruez do I slice the decal/tranny/deckle > at the point of attachment between control surface and "wing" or > do I use solvent and setting solutions? Well, since my ailerons are usually cut away anyway, the kreuz has to be cut. However, do cut anyway, since it will give a better appearance. Lay the kreuz down (after getting it wet, naturally ), cut where it meets the aileron, then add setting solution, so the edges of the kreuz sits down into the hinge line. Then, if I didn't cut away the aileron, I either add a wash to the hinge line to "pop it out", or use a Micron marker to "pop it out". Good luck, and HTH. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:30:41 EST From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Colors! Message-ID: <19970203.123250.9062.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:59:29 -0500 aew@pease1.sr.unh.edu (Allan Wright) writes: > Anyone know the 'standard' color schemes for the following: > Siemens-Schukert D-I (kitbashing a Revell Nieuport 17c) I asked this same question to Dan Abbott quite a while ago. There were two common schemes. The first was - you guessed it - all over clear doped linen. The second was a camoflage scheme of brown and green upper surfaces, with sky blue undersurfaces and struts. If you want, send me your snail mail, and I'll photocopy was was sent to me. > Fokker B.1 in Austrio-Hungarian service (yeah, building the > Miekraft) Are you sure it's the B.I and not the B.II? The B.I was a two-seater, while the B.II appears to be the D.I derivative. If it's the B.II, the pictures in the A-H tome show it to be either in the "A-H Fokker Green", or clear doped linen. I would be more inclined towards a very dirty clear doped linen. Why dirty? Because the castor oil spray from the engine made it so. Here's my question to the group: how would you replicate the castor oil "dirt", or smear on a scale model? From looking at pictures, it seems that the castor oil soaked into the fabric, giving it a different look than just drybrushing. What does everyone think? Riordan: do you have the A-H tome? I was curious, because while leafing through looking for the B.II info, I went a little further and saw that a few Fokker D.VI's were sent to A-H; however, they never saw any WW1 action, but did see post war action as tied to the Hugarian air force. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:30:41 EST From: mbittner@juno.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Future Floor Wax? Message-ID: <19970203.123250.9062.1.mbittner@juno.com> On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:12:55 -0500 aew@pease1.sr.unh.edu (Allan Wright) writes: > I'm a diehard fan of Testor's Dullcote and Glosscote products, > but they are harsh on the lungs so I'm considering using my > airbrush to blow some Future Floor Was onto my models instead. I > know some of you do this. Ok. I'll echo others thoughts, and add a couple of my own. Do not thin Future; there is no need. Be sure to let Future dry *thoroughly* before doing anything with it. I've found on average it takes two days for the Future to dry all the way. It will be dry to the touch in a manner of a couple of hours, but I have put fingerprints into Future being too hasty. I now let it dry completely before doing anything more with the model. I have not had any luck brushing it. It's just me, trust me. That's why I tend to airbrush practically everything. Definitely clean the airbrush afterwards. For me, I just spray car windshield cleaning fluid, and that does a wonderful job. However, be *very* careful with the windshield fluid, as this *will* take off Future. Don't drip any on your model - again, trust me on this. ;-) If you don't like spraying Testor's dull coat anymore, then definitely try Polly Scale's dull coat. *Not* Polly S, but Polly Scale. They've changed their flat "formula", and it works wonderfully. However, you will need to thin this. I recommend thinning with windshield washing fluid. Actually, this is how I thin *all* my Polly Scale for airbrushing. It works wonders, and it's *cheap*. Around here, a gallon of the stuff goes for $.99, and it lasts for a few models. Well worth the cost. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:43:21 GMT From: michel.lefort@ping.be (Michel LEFORT) To: wwi Subject: Is there a good samaritan somewhere? ;-) Message-ID: <32fb30c9.39462464@relay.ping.be> I have just resubscribed to the WWI list. I didn't receive anything for 4 or 5 days. Here is the last message that I received before being disconnected: Subject : Re: Red Baron Date : Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:02:58 -0500 Here is the first that I received since my resubscription: Subject : Re: Decals & separate control surfaces Date : Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:35:45 -0500 I there some kind soul who would forward me the mails between those twos, please. Please, email me before doing it, as I don't want to get 10 times the messages ;-). Regards. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:42:08 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Re: Colors! Message-ID: <199702031942.OAA13213@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > Are you sure it's the B.I and not the B.II? The B.I was a > two-seater, while the B.II appears to be the D.I derivative. It is the B.II > If it's the B.II, the pictures in the A-H tome show it to be > either in the "A-H Fokker Green", or clear doped linen. I would > be more inclined towards a very dirty clear doped linen. Why > dirty? Because the castor oil spray from the engine made it so. (Slaps hand on forehead) I go and spend $79 on the A-H book and 'DUH!' don't consult it for this info?!? Dumb, dumb, DUMB! I'll go look it up tonight. Thanks! -Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 97 19:40:07 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Re[2]: Colors!/A-H Fokkers Message-ID: <9701038550.AA855028450@mx.Ricochet.net> Matt, No I don't have it, but a friend at work does...not sure if he's tired of me pestering him for references, though. I'd like another look at it for the MAG D.VIIs and other odds & ends. Riordan ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Colors! Author: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu at Internet Date: 2/3/97 10:34 AM On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:59:29 -0500 aew@pease1.sr.unh.edu (Allan Wright) writes: > Anyone know the 'standard' color schemes for the following: > Siemens-Schukert D-I (kitbashing a Revell Nieuport 17c) I asked this same question to Dan Abbott quite a while ago. There were two common schemes. The first was - you guessed it - all over clear doped linen. The second was a camoflage scheme of brown and green upper surfaces, with sky blue undersurfaces and struts. If you want, send me your snail mail, and I'll photocopy was was sent to me. > Fokker B.1 in Austrio-Hungarian service (yeah, building the > Miekraft) Are you sure it's the B.I and not the B.II? The B.I was a two-seater, while the B.II appears to be the D.I derivative. If it's the B.II, the pictures in the A-H tome show it to be either in the "A-H Fokker Green", or clear doped linen. I would be more inclined towards a very dirty clear doped linen. Why dirty? Because the castor oil spray from the engine made it so. Here's my question to the group: how would you replicate the castor oil "dirt", or smear on a scale model? From looking at pictures, it seems that the castor oil soaked into the fabric, giving it a different look than just drybrushing. What does everyone think? Riordan: do you have the A-H tome? I was curious, because while leafing through looking for the B.II info, I went a little further and saw that a few Fokker D.VI's were sent to A-H; however, they never saw any WW1 action, but did see post war action as tied to the Hugarian air force. Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 97 19:43:43 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Russian Civil War article Message-ID: <9701038550.AA855028460@mx.Ricochet.net> Shane, Thanks!!! Great stuff. Grist for the mill and the makings of a few more projects I don't have enough time for. I wish they'd included a bibliography:-( Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:45:08 -0600 (CST) From: "huggins@onramp.net" To: wwi Subject: Re: Future Floor Wax? Message-ID: >Here's a new one: > >I'm a diehard fan of Testor's Dullcote and Glosscote products, but they >are harsh on the lungs so I'm considering using my airbrush to blow >some Future Floor Was onto my models instead. I know some of you do this. > >Here's my questions: > >1) What's the basic technique, thinning solution, ratio? Don't thin, shake, or do anything other than use it right out of the bottle. You can use an airbrush, paint brush, q-tip. your finger or anything else you want to apply it. You can dip the parts in it, pour it on the parts, or paint it on. It does not care. It self levels and does not yellow with age.( been using it for better than 15 years now) If the surface is not level and you put on a heavy coating, it will flow to the down edge and build up a puddle. When spraying, I mist on a tack coat, then coe right back with a wet coat. > >2) Can you do something to this to make it a flat (dullcote substitute) >finish? You can mix the old Plooy S formula clear flat with it with out any problems. The new Aero Master clear flat works as well. The ratio can be in any degree and the results will go from a gloss to a dead flat. > >3) How waretproof is this finish? I sometimes dullcote in between painting and > decal application to protect the paint from the decal setting solutions. Once dry, water will not harm the finish. Some decal setting solutions and acrylic thinners will soften it. If you are using an airbrush, clean it as soon as you stop spraying. If any Future dries in the brush or color cup, it is almost a perminate part of the brush. > My only other advise is to try it any way you like. If it works for you, stay with it. If it does not work, modify the application untill it does work. I use it for a sealer. apply the decals and do any panel line detailing I want, then put another coat on the top to seal the finish. Pastel weathering would be put on last. One word of caution. Do not put it on over any acrylic gloss paint. It will look great for about 3 days. Then the color coat will start to develop spider web looking cracks. It is OK over flats and semi gloss paints. Good luck. Use it a few times and you won't go back to gloss or dull coat. JPH Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:26:45 -0500 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Decals & separate control surfaces Message-ID: <199702040426.XAA14508@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 09:54 AM 2/3/97 -0500, Joseph Gentile wrote: >I feel as though I am about to ask the proverbial "dumb" question but here goes: Hey Joe, watch it. Dumd questions are sort of my speciality and I zealously guard my turf!!! ;-) Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:26:47 -0500 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Dr.1 alignment Message-ID: <199702040426.XAA14518@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Here's one for you guys with the tiny fingers and sharp eyes. I just started lining up the part for my Triplane. I building the 1/72 Fokker Dr.1 by Revel via Germany. The bottom wing fits nice and flush to the fuselage and seems to be at the appropriate angle when viewed from above.(i.e. 90 degrees) Here's the problem. When I fit the middle wing to the fuselage, it seems to be at a different angle, causing the wings to not line up properly. I cut off the little insertion tab underneath the middle wing where it fits into the fuselage locating hole hoping that would help, but things still seem a little off...or considering the scaale, if the naked eye sees it as off, it must really be off. Any hints on how the rest of you guys solved this? Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:38:01 -0700 From: mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca (Mark K. Nelson) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dr.1 alignment Message-ID: I haven't built mine yet but. . . (A Standard Refrain from me lately) Immediately after purchasing my Revell 1/72 kit I checked it against 1/72 plans. The only real "serious" problem I noticed was that the lower wing opening is positioned 2mm or so too far aft! That would probably be the cause of your misalingment problem. (I also noticed that the example on the side of the box has had the landing gear installed backwards!) >Here's one for you guys with the tiny fingers and sharp eyes. I just >started lining up the part for my Triplane. I building the 1/72 Fokker Dr.1 >by Revel via Germany. The bottom wing fits nice and flush to the fuselage >and seems to be at the appropriate angle when viewed from above.(i.e. 90 >degrees) Here's the problem. When I fit the middle wing to the fuselage, it >seems to be at a different angle, causing the wings to not line up properly. >I cut off the little insertion tab underneath the middle wing where it fits >into the fuselage locating hole hoping that would help, but things still >seem a little off...or considering the scaale, if the naked eye sees it as >off, it must really be off. Any hints on how the rest of you guys solved this? >Mike Muth _____________________________________________________________________ Mark (An Employee at Kites & Other Delights in West Edmonton Mall) ------------------------ mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:17:56 -0500 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Dr.1 alignment Message-ID: <199702041217.HAA15318@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 12:45 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Mark K. Nelson wrote: >I haven't built mine yet but. . . (A Standard Refrain from me lately) > >Immediately after purchasing my Revell 1/72 kit I checked it against 1/72 >plans. The only real "serious" problem I noticed was that the lower wing >opening is positioned 2mm or so too far aft! That would probably be the >cause of your misalingment problem. (I also noticed that the example on the >side of the box has had the landing gear installed backwards!) Mark Thanks. Since I already glued the bottom wing, does that mean major sanding on the middle wing is the only alternative? Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:44:25 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Re: Re[2]: Colors!/A-H Fokkers Message-ID: <199702041344.IAA15515@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Matt wrote: > Are you sure it's the B.I and not the B.II? The B.I was a > two-seater, while the B.II appears to be the D.I derivative. Actually it's the B.III (MAG) and I checked the A-H book, some info there but could use more (can't we always?) -Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | You fell victim to one of the 'classic' blunders! University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling WWW Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 422 *********************