WWI Digest 396 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Embarassing Top Aces question. by Sandy Adam 2) 12 January 1917 - MvR awarded the PlM by Peter Kilduff 3) Friday, 12 January 1917, Plessis by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 4) Re: 12 January 1917 - MvR awarded the PlM by DavidL1217@aol.com 5) Re: Biggles by Alberto Rada 6) Gothas over London 13th.June 1917 by knut.erik.hagen@login.eunet.no (Knut Erik Hagen) 7) RE: Gothas over London 13th.June 1917 by Peter Kilduff 8) Re: Eric Pilawski's Models on-line by "Valenciano . Jose" 9) Cpt. Merian C. Cooper's DH4 by "Shelley Goodwin" 10) Re[2]: Embarassing Top Aces question. by "Shelley Goodwin" 11) Re: Biggles by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 12) Re: Embarassing Top Aces question. by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 13) Biggles by bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 14) help by "Valenciano . Jose" 15) Re: help, not necessary by "Valenciano . Jose" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:58:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Sandy Adam To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Embarassing Top Aces question. Message-ID: Bill (and Carlos) I am indebted for your very complete response to my doubts over the veracity of any, indeed all, the victory tallies credited to 'aces' of the Great War. I accept and am chewing over much of what you have said, although some of the practices which you mention were occasional rather than mandatory - Werner Voss for example was credited to Rhys Davies and not to all six pilots of 56 squadron who fired on him - and I am sure there are many examples both ways. However my basic point does not change - a question which asks who was the top Ace for each participant does not really have a single universally acceptable answer. The simple answer of the official listings we all know of 80 to Richthofen etc, etc, I find totally meaningless for reasons previously stated and also several others eg * The needs of publicity machines in all participant countries to lionise heroes generally and also at specific times - examples here could be Jean Navarre, mentioned in another thread of this list who was one gleam of heroism amid the obscene slaughter of Verdun, also Rickenbacker and the other american pilots who received enormous publicity at a time when it was politic to encourage the US people back home with the immediate success that their entry into the war had generated and the imminenet conclusion this would bring. Don't think I belittle any individual's achievement - God knows how they could bear the stress day after day - but it would be naive to believe that officaldom on all sides was not overly positive about claims when it suited. Bill's point as to whether Richtofen or 'Lt Kije' would be believed is apposite but as to who actually deserved the kill I would reverse the logic. Richtofen is well documented as waiting above and out of the melee until a target of opportunity presented itself - which may have been set up by another pilot -before nipping in and claiming the prize. He must have been a real pain to fly with and I would like to add a new possibility as to who killed the red baron - another german pilot sick to death of the prima donna hogging the limelight! * A recurrant theme in most allied pilots biographies is the prevalent wind direction wherein an allied pilot always has to keep in mind during any engagement that he must work his way back west against the wind. I suggest that in many cases, verification was likely to be easier for a german pilot since 'probables' didn't appear so often. If his 'probable' got back over the lines it was most likely being flown in some manner by a human hand and was controllable so would have a good chance of landing. Anything unlikely to be able to keep flying or with a pilot too badly wounded or unconscious would more likely come down on his own side of the lines and would thus be a 'kill' whether crashed in flames or gliding down with engine off. On the other hand how many accounts have we all read of a german target which has received several drums and belts of ammunition and continued westwards with dead or dying crew but which could and would not be claimed as a kill. I suggest the german aviator should have expected credit for more kills than his allied counterpart if all else was equal. Of course I am stating an opinion of a trend or slight weighting of odds here rather than a hard and fast general rule. * What is a 'kill'? Is an RE8 or a BE2 for MvR equivalent to Lanoe Hawker? Is a novice in a superior Camel equivalent to Hawker in an obsolete DH2? Well according to the 'scores' - yes, but according to any sort of common sense - no. Werner Voss counts as the same one kill as the boy on his first flight over the lines who never even knew what hit him. Dear me I seem to be going on at some length here. In conclusion my personal feelings are that the Top Aces Scores is a meaningless list and thats not even starting to take luck into account. There were too many variables and interested parties to make comparisons viable. All I believe is that there were a group of experienced pilots who because of marksmanship, pilot ability, hunting technique, luck or whatever achieved higher results and sometimes lived a little longer than others. Who was the 'top ace' would be impossible to ascertain but as far as I am concerned it aint Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen just because the figure 80 appears in all the books beside his name. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 9:39:53 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Kilduff To: wwi Subject: 12 January 1917 - MvR awarded the PlM Message-ID: <970112093953.202555ca@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> Eighty years ago today, Leutnant Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen, newly appointed commanding officer of Jagdstaffel 11, received der Orden Pour le Merite. As noted in the new MvR biography: "The award date of Manfred von Richthofen's 'Pour le Merite' was 12 January 1917, one year to the day after the same high honour had been authorized for Oswald Boelcke and Max Immelmann. Much had changed during that year. If there was any question about fighter pilot 'qualifications' for Prussia's highest bravery award, the notice distributed to 6. Armee air units plainly stated that Richthofen's 'Pour le Merite' was 'bestowed for the successful conmfirmed downing of 16 enemy aeroplanes.'" Boelcke and Immelmann had received the award after shooting down eight enemy aircraft apiece and Richthofen was "irritated" that he had to shoot down twice that number before receiving the decoration popularly known as "the blue Max." BTW, the PlM was *Prussia's* highest bravery awared and NOT, as some like to think, presented by The German Empire, which had no awards. In a similar vein it should be noted that there was no "Imperial German Air Force"; rather, it was "die deutsche Luftstreitkraefte." Irrespective of imperialist or other inclinations, it is recommended that all Richthofenologists and "fellow travelers" celebrate this occasion with a good bottle of Sekt (or any other beverage). Full dress uniforms are optional. Peter Kilduff kilduff@ccsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:58:29 -0800 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Friday, 12 January 1917, Plessis Message-ID: <32D93455.6FB4@host.dmsc.net> 893. Showers all day and snow by night. Managed to get a good flight in a.m. and had an excellent machine. Went up again this afternoon but had to return to the field at once on account of rain. Letters from dear little Mother, Helen Harper, postal from Olive saying she has sent a photo of herself some time ago which I have never yet received, Xmas card from Bertha Brittlinger and a mighty nice letter from Cousins Charlie and Susie Gumbs. Cousin Charlie's note is lovely. Wrote to Dave Wheeler this evening. I do wish he and Mrs Wheeler would get over here again. He surely ought to be able to get some sort of medical commission in the Canadian Forces. ************************ from the War Diary of E.C.C. Genet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:47:22 -0500 (EST) From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: 12 January 1917 - MvR awarded the PlM Message-ID: <970112104720_1857569082@emout07.mail.aol.com> Hoch dem Kaiser! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:38:17 -0400 (AST) From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: Re: Biggles Message-ID: <199701122138.RAA09661@fw.true.net> By one of those chances of luck, a modeler friend of mine just arrived=20 from Europe and while in England he visited the Royal Air Force Museum and brought their 1997 catalogue , and what is there announced in page 27 TARA . . .=20 A whole bunch of Biggles books, now they have: Biggles Graphic Novels Biggles and the Battle of Britain priced at =A3 5.99 Biggles Spitfire Parade priced at =A3 5.99 Biggles Flying Detective priced at =A3 4.99 These other ones don=92t seem to be illustrated and + look like magazine= size=20 and are all priced at =A3 3.99 These ones look like WW 1 or where about: The Cruise of the Condor The camels are coming And the rescue flight And the secred mission Fails to return Of the fighter squadron Learns to fly In France Flies East These other ones look arround WW II Delivers the goods Flying detective Defies the Swastica In the orient & Co. In Spain Defends the desert Foreign Legionnaire And the black peril 2 easy ways to order: Telephone 0181-205-6867 or call 0181-201-2266 and ask for the Shop Ordering by Fax: 0181-201-3595 International Orders: Payment should be made by Mastercard, Visa, American Express, Eurocheque, or by International Money Order, Cheques should be drawn=20 on a UK bank in =A3 , Overseas postage add 20 % of total order value, minimun =A3 3.00 mind you this is not Air mail, they require extra cost for= =20 that, gosh, you Britts are stingy. Well I=92ll be ordering mines, They dont have much else on WWI books Hoping this helps SALUDOS ALBERTO ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:01:29 +0100 (MET) From: knut.erik.hagen@login.eunet.no (Knut Erik Hagen) To: wwi Subject: Gothas over London 13th.June 1917 Message-ID: <199701130001.BAA14643@login.eunet.no> Gentlemen, I have another question that you might help me with: ALmost 80 years ago, on 13th. June 1917 Norwegian pilot Tryggve Gran was among the RFC pilots who tried to intercept a number of German twin engined bombers returning from London. He flew BE 12 #6488 and opened fire on the last plane in a flight of four. Gran claimed that the gunner was hit and slumped over his guns, but he had to break off due to the concentrated fire from the other Gothas. His report (printed in "Under Britisk Flag") and Cole`s "The Air Defence of Britain 1914-1918" agree reasonably on the events. Cole even has a picture of BE 12 #6488, but I have not been able to locate any references to which Gothas (or other twin engined pushers) taking part in the attack. Especially if there was one machine that returned with damage that could be attributed to Gran`s attack. I have the "Gotha!" booklet by Windsock, but it did not help me on this. TIA Knut Erik ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:14:11 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Kilduff To: wwi Subject: RE: Gothas over London 13th.June 1917 Message-ID: <970112201411.202a38fc@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> The Spring 1982 issue of CROSS & COCKADE JOURNAL (Vol. 23, No. 1) has an article titled "Bogohl 3 Combat Log." It is a summary of KG/BG 3 air ops, mostly over England. For 13 June 1917 it states that 17 KG 3 aircraft [Gothas] were attacked and one returned with battle damage, but no casualties. PK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:53:01 +0800 (GMT+0800) From: "Valenciano . Jose" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Eric Pilawski's Models on-line Message-ID: More power to Eric! Beautifully finished fuselage. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 mbittner@juno.com wrote: > On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:17:13 -0500 AEW@unh.edu (Allan Wright) > writes: > > > Just a quick WWW page update. I've scanned in some of Eric > > Pilawski's photos of his models. They're in the standard place > > on the WWW page. Take a look - there is some nice stuff there - > > especially the wood grain detail on the Roland D-VIb he did. > > A terrific job - well done - on the D.VIb. This is an amazing > piece of work, one I can't wait for seeing up close. Heck, it > looks like it's ready to fly off the table top!! > > Great job, Erik. > > > Matt > mbittner@juno.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 97 18:24:48 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Cpt. Merian C. Cooper's DH4 Message-ID: <9700128531.AA853122500@mx.Ricochet.net> Anyone have refs. on prominant non-ace U.S. Air Service pilots? Cooper was in the 20th Sq. of the 1st Day Bombardment Group and was shot down Sept. 26, 1918. TIA, Riordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 97 18:16:48 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Re[2]: Embarassing Top Aces question. Message-ID: <9700128531.AA853122490@mx.Ricochet.net> Sandy (et al), Very interesting can of worms you gents are kicking around. Wonder what PK's take on this is...(hint, hint!) Riordan ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Embarassing Top Aces question. Author: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu at Internet Date: 1/12/97 5:06 AM Bill (and Carlos) I am indebted for your very complete response to my doubts over the veracity of any, indeed all, the victory tallies credited to 'aces' of the Great War. I accept and am chewing over much of what you have said, although some of the practices which you mention were occasional rather than mandatory - Werner Voss for example was credited to Rhys Davies and not to all six pilots of 56 squadron who fired on him - and I am sure there are many examples both ways. However my basic point does not change - a question which asks who was the top Ace for each participant does not really have a single universally acceptable answer. The simple answer of the official listings we all know of 80 to Richthofen etc, etc, I find totally meaningless for reasons previously stated and also several others eg * The needs of publicity machines in all participant countries to lionise heroes generally and also at specific times - examples here could be Jean Navarre, mentioned in another thread of this list who was one gleam of heroism amid the obscene slaughter of Verdun, also Rickenbacker and the other american pilots who received enormous publicity at a time when it was politic to encourage the US people back home with the immediate success that their entry into the war had generated and the imminenet conclusion this would bring. Don't think I belittle any individual's achievement - God knows how they could bear the stress day after day - but it would be naive to believe that officaldom on all sides was not overly positive about claims when it suited. Bill's point as to whether Richtofen or 'Lt Kije' would be believed is apposite but as to who actually deserved the kill I would reverse the logic. Richtofen is well documented as waiting above and out of the melee until a target of opportunity presented itself - which may have been set up by another pilot -before nipping in and claiming the prize. He must have been a real pain to fly with and I would like to add a new possibility as to who killed the red baron - another german pilot sick to death of the prima donna hogging the limelight! * A recurrant theme in most allied pilots biographies is the prevalent wind direction wherein an allied pilot always has to keep in mind during any engagement that he must work his way back west against the wind. I suggest that in many cases, verification was likely to be easier for a german pilot since 'probables' didn't appear so often. If his 'probable' got back over the lines it was most likely being flown in some manner by a human hand and was controllable so would have a good chance of landing. Anything unlikely to be able to keep flying or with a pilot too badly wounded or unconscious would more likely come down on his own side of the lines and would thus be a 'kill' whether crashed in flames or gliding down with engine off. On the other hand how many accounts have we all read of a german target which has received several drums and belts of ammunition and continued westwards with dead or dying crew but which could and would not be claimed as a kill. I suggest the german aviator should have expected credit for more kills than his allied counterpart if all else was equal. Of course I am stating an opinion of a trend or slight weighting of odds here rather than a hard and fast general rule. * What is a 'kill'? Is an RE8 or a BE2 for MvR equivalent to Lanoe Hawker? Is a novice in a superior Camel equivalent to Hawker in an obsolete DH2? Well according to the 'scores' - yes, but according to any sort of common sense - no. Werner Voss counts as the same one kill as the boy on his first flight over the lines who never even knew what hit him. Dear me I seem to be going on at some length here. In conclusion my personal feelings are that the Top Aces Scores is a meaningless list and thats not even starting to take luck into account. There were too many variables and interested parties to make comparisons viable. All I believe is that there were a group of experienced pilots who because of marksmanship, pilot ability, hunting technique, luck or whatever achieved higher results and sometimes lived a little longer than others. Who was the 'top ace' would be impossible to ascertain but as far as I am concerned it aint Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen just because the figure 80 appears in all the books beside his name. Sandy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:31:47 -0500 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Biggles Message-ID: <199701130331.WAA20145@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 04:48 PM 1/12/97 -0500, Alberto Rada wrote: >By one of those chances of luck, a modeler friend of mine just arrived=20 >from Europe and while in England he visited the Royal Air Force Museum >and brought their 1997 catalogue , and what is there announced in page 27 >A whole bunch of Biggles books, Thanks. I'll try and give them a call and pick up one. Great timing, eh? Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:31:48 -0500 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Embarassing Top Aces question. Message-ID: <199701130331.WAA20156@pease1.sr.unh.edu> At 11:41 PM 1/11/97 -0500, Bill Shatzer wrote: > >I think there is _considerable_ doubt! I once read, can't remember >where, that the total number of confirmed British victories on the >western front roughly -equaled_ the total German losses on that >front from all causes! You'd have thought that the French, the >Belgians, the Americans and accident and mechanical failure would >have accounted for a few of those losses. Actually, it hasn't changed all that much. I remember during the Israeli-Egyptian war in the late 60's that tv reports were criticizing the number of Israeli aircraft claimed by Egyptian pilots. It was weird, because I was reading an Air Progress magazine at the time that listed the # of planes in both countries. The broaodcast went on to give the total number of Israeli victory claims. Sure enough, it was more than the number of Egyptian aircraftlisted in their Air Force! Doesn't someone on this list have a tag line that goes "The more things change they more they stay the same? ;-} Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:35:12 -0500 From: bucky@mail.prolog.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Biggles Message-ID: <199701130335.WAA20184@pease1.sr.unh.edu> ##@#$^!!!%#!@^!#^@ stinking computers Er, Alberto or anyone else Could you send me that phone number again for the book store at the museum? I just trashed it before saving. Mike, I hate computers sometimes, Muth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:40:23 +0800 (GMT+0800) From: "Valenciano . Jose" To: wwi Subject: help Message-ID: Something weird happened to the server over here. Some of you may have seen my "test, don't read" message. If you have, I haven't and it means that I've been excommunicated again. Please let me know (directly, not through the list) if you got the "test, don't read" message. Thanks. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:52:22 +0800 (GMT+0800) From: "Valenciano . Jose" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: help, not necessary Message-ID: Hi guys, the "help" message bounced back to me signalling that all's well. Stange though, I didn't get the "test" message. Wonder what happened. On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Valenciano . Jose wrote: > Something weird happened to the server over here. > > Some of you may have seen my "test, don't read" message. If you have, I > haven't and it means that I've been excommunicated again. Please let me > know (directly, not through the list) if you got the "test, don't read" > message. > > Thanks. ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 396 *********************