WWI Digest 52 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Nieuport 11 colors by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 2) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport by gspring@ix.netcom.com (Greg Springer ) 3) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 4) Re: A tidbit by GRBroman@aol.com 5) Re: Aircraft from Berlin... TANK, TANK !!! by GRBroman@aol.com 6) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport by DavidL1217@aol.com 7) Re: WWI digest 50 by GRBroman@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:51:34 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Nieuport 11 colors Message-ID: Jeff inquires about Ni-11 colors > >>Windsock Vol. 9 No. 4 had an article on Italian Nieuport colors. > >Matt, or anyone else with this volume.. > >Can you check this issue and see if it helps me any? (I know, I should have >a subscription, but I don't!) > This particular Windsock article has a short description of Italian insignia red and green taken from a preserved Nieuport 10 from an Italian museum, both FS and Methuen color references are given. I was able to find (after only a brief search) a couple of photos of Macchi Ni-11s in a 1995 issue of Cross & Cockade International, photos from the IWM collection. These show machines lacking fuselage roundels and either clear doped linen or doped a light color overall. The cowls are red-white-green on their fronts and the rudders have white paint applied to the stripe between the red and green ones. These machines also have a darker color fabric tape applied over the positions of the fuselage longerons and around the edges of the wings. The rib tapes appear to be the same color as the covering fabric (i.e. light colored and blend in). Not much to go on but I hope that this helps. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:26:07 -0800 From: gspring@ix.netcom.com (Greg Springer ) To: wwi Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport Message-ID: <199603022326.PAA07593@ix5.ix.netcom.com> Bonjour Monsieur Clef Volant! (Flying wrench in French.) You wrote: >>So more than one Nieuport 17 is not out of the question. But, >>given the markings on N 1550, it would seem that N 1550 was, or >>at least was intended to be, Guynemer's 'regular' a/c. > >The Wrench salutes: > >Good morning Mr. Shatzer. It appears we are the only ones up in this corner >of the virtual trenchwar. Mais non, Gaston! >Question: Can I safely assume that N1550 had no wing cutout, but in fact had >the cone? Can you give me some photo references that I might consult >concerning 1550? Is is my imagination or are photos of messrs. Guynemer's >aircraft are somewhat obscure, especially his early birds? No, 1550 had the 'cutout' but, merde alors, eet eez not a cutout. The wing at that point is covered with cellophane to provide a better view upward and forward. This can be seen in photos of the aircraft in the Guynemer monograph that Albatros publications put out in 1987. It is also seen on the original box art of the Hobbycraft kit. 1550 had camouflaged upper wing surfaces with a 2" aluminum border around all edges including the wing roots of the lower wing. The horizontal stab was left aluminum. It also has a large non-standard windscreen and the cone. The camouflage may have been two-color but looks like a single shade to me. The photo with the broken prop was taken on August 3 or July 28th, 1916 depending upon which of my French-written refferences you choose to believe. This may have been 1550 but also could have been 1531 (1331?) which was overall aluminum with a different style of #2 on the fuselage and the standard wind screen. I'd reproduce the upper wing center section by replacing it with a piece of plexiglas filed and sanded to fit, then polished and the rib detail painted on. The kit windscreen gives you a correct center part. Just make a pair of triangular sides from .015 sheet styrene that taper back and down from the top edge to the sides of the cockpit Photos don't seem to be too rare but everybody has a different identification as to which aircraft is which. One photo of 1550 however has the serial no. clearly shown on the rudder and all of the above features are seen. Sante! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:57:06 -0800 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport Message-ID: <199603030057.AA24082@ednet1.orednet.org> The wrench wrote: > -snips- >Question: Can I safely assume that N1550 had no wing cutout, but in fact had >the cone? Can you give me some photo references that I might consult >concerning 1550? Is is my imagination or are photos of messrs. Guynemer's >aircraft are somewhat obscure, especially his early birds? > I can add little to Greg Springer's comments on this subject - the camouflage looks two-toned to me but I'll admit this is open to interpertation. On everything else, all I can do is echo Greg's remarks. I think he's got most everything 'bout right. 'Tis interesting that the Hobbycraft kit shows the 'cut out' on the box art but not on the instructions - but the photos seem to show the transparent panel in the upper wing so if ya' want to do N 1550 right, I think this feature needs to be incorporated. I think the idea about using plexiglas may be a good 'un - I've incorporated the transparent panel in 1/72nd Nieuports by physically cutting the hole in the wing and covering it with cellophane. But this tended to make a rather flimsy wing - adequate in 1/72nd if you were -real- careful but probably not up to supporting the weight of the 1/32nd scale wing on the Hobbycraft. Cheers, Bill PS: "Mister" Shatzer??? sheesh! when did we get so high faluttin' formal 'round here?? -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "The only duty we owe to history is to rewrite it." -Oscar Wilde- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 21:35:05 -0500 From: GRBroman@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: A tidbit Message-ID: <960302213503_158530138@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-03-01 08:30:34 EST, you write: > >Not sure of what mods you would have to do, but Tauro put out a Fiat >3000(?), which was an FT-17 clone. Since I have no references on the >Fiat, I can't say for sure what (if any) differences there are. > > > Matt, I have that puppy downstairs. I think it requires a suspension change and some other changes. It is doable (cool word, yes?) but is so far down the list behind the A7V, some Mark IV mods, and the Emhar Whippet threw the whole production schedule out of whack :), that an injection molded version will probably be on the street before I get to it. Which will throw the A7V behind schedule with the Mark IV mods...... :) Glen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 21:36:17 -0500 From: GRBroman@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Aircraft from Berlin... TANK, TANK !!! Message-ID: <960302213616_158530150@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-03-01 21:27:32 EST, you write: >How about some info on the more elusive Schneiders and St. Chamonds ! > > Joey, sounds like an intereseting project. The one big problem I would have is that I speak German, English and a fairly fluent Canadian :), but not French and the French Museum at Saumer probably has some nice photos and references but I don't know how to tap into them. Perhaps we have a French speaker who could help? Glen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 13:37:17 -0500 From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport Message-ID: <960303133716_339633056@emout06.mail.aol.com> Hobby Craft's generic Nie. 17 lacks the clear cellual (sp). The Windsock review of the kit a few years back shows how to add the window and rib work. The Top of the wings only wer camoflagued on several Nie 17's. I believe Guynemer had one which also had the Cone d' penetration. (I have to put this term into context when I say it near my wife!) Actually, Billy Bishop's actual cone is on display with propeller at the Canadian War Museum. Hey, I even showed it to my wife. Now she is comfortable with it. Next to the cone is the relic fuselage of Barker's Snipe and in the center of the room hanging only 6 feet off the ground is a restored navel Camel 2F1. You can walk all around the aircraft and get within touching distance (no, I did not). This is unlike the Smithsonian where you cannot even get a good look at the aircraft. I question whether or not the Snipe and the Albatros will eventually be damage by their suspended animation. Back to the Nie 17. when you do the wing camoflague (dark Green & Chesnut) the silver aluminum dope wraps around a few inches onto the upper surface. This gives a nifty outline effect.. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 13:41:20 -0500 From: GRBroman@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: WWI digest 50 Message-ID: <960303134119_339636124@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-03-02 01:12:37 EST, you write: > Hayes Otopolak ( I may have butchered his name ) owns one somewhere in >Montana I believe. It is the only WW1 tank in private hands that I know >of. It also is a runner, and he drove it in a video that he sells ( >never seen it but i've heard it was pretty good ). > It was originaly sold at action by the state, here in AZ, when the >Furrs WW1 Army Museum at Piccacho Peak was seized due to non payment of >back taxes. Too bad, I remember seeing the collection as a kid and it >was pretty good. Lousy atmosphere of a tourist trap but some real rare >stuff. > I'll see if I can find his address for you. > > Rick thanks for the tip. I was told by our local Museum curator today that a gentleman around San Diego also owns one, he apparently has quite a collection. I also found an interior shot of the FT-17 in the archives today that is not in the manual. Not much to that puppy!!! Kick the driver in the appropriate shoulder to tell himm where to go. Think about driving across shell pocked terrain, machine gun bullets pinging all over the armor, spraying small bits of spall all over you, the odd gas shell to piss you off and some jerk is dropping artillery all over you and oh, by the way, your boss is kicking you in the head every twelve feet. HMMM, where is that transfer form to the air corps... :) Glen ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 52 ********************