WWI Digest 47 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Max's E.III by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 2) Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum by The Flying Wrench 3) Re: Max's E.III by The Flying Wrench 4) The reality of PC 10 by The Flying Wrench 5) Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum by "Matt Bittner" 6) Re[2]: Max's E.III by stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu 7) Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum by iceman@ro.com (Eli Geher) 8) Potential new 1/48th kits... by "Joseph R. Boeke" 9) Re: Potential new 1/48th kits... by "Matt Bittner" 10) Re: Re[2]: Max's E.III by The Flying Wrench 11) Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum by Erik Pilawskii 12) Eduard Seimens Shuckert by sbstd@iinet.net.au (Step by Step Training Development) 13) Re: Eduard Seimens Shuckert by bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) 14) Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum by Robert Woodbury 15) Re: Eduard Seimens Shuckert by Jose Valenciano ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Feb 96 15:54:00 EST From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Cc: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: RE: Max's E.III Message-ID: <199602270616.QAA28096@mimmon.mim.com.au> Bill writes >Just my endorsement of Charles' thoughts - really, when it comes >to the -particular shades- of WW1 colors, anyone who is -too- >dogmatic on this subject just, quite frankly, does not know of >what he speaks. I mean, we can be pretty sure a pink Sopwith >Camel is -wrong- but I doubt we can accurately and positively the >exact shade of PC10 a particular aircraft is finished in. The voice of sweet reason. Bill, would you mind coming along to the next contest I enter and argue our case with the Colour Police Commisars (judges with FS decks) >The >few existent color photos from the WW1 era are not much more >help given the limitations of early color photography in reproducing >exact colors (heck, even modern films induce errors in this regard) Having seen the best prints available from Hurleys originals at the Australian War Memorial I can but agree. Now I add my agreement with Charles and Bills general thrust. We can strive for an authentic appearance, but at best it will be a matter of opinion whether we succeed precisely. I'd like to have both those posts printed and made compulsory reading for magazine reviewers, contest judges and other blowhards. My 0.02 (Oz of course) worth Shane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:09:56 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum Message-ID: <199602270609.VAA05877@anchor> At 11:39 PM 2/26/96 -0500, Erik Pilawskii wrote: - Slice and dice, cut and hack, rent and tear - > Sure would like to se a restored Rol.D.VIb....! > > Erik The Wrench adds his voice: Hear, Hear, I'm beginning to think I like this enemy a/c as much as the Pfalz. One thing about aircraft collecting as opposed to say art, stamp, or coin collecting, is that the collector is hard pressed to put these aircraft in a back room for his private viewing. Most aircraft collectors like to exhibit their aircraft anyway. If the aircraft is an airworthy example, they definitely fly them and so far these are quite visible as, to the best of my knowledge, none of those odd, cellophane coated, German examples survived. Due to the U.S. tax structure the most economical way to own antique aircraft is to have them in a 'museum', Such museums are generally tax exempt or deductible depending on how they are set up. So when a private owner/collector in the US comes into possession of a rare aircraft, it will almost certainly be put on display somewhere. So I do not worry so much if private collectors come into possession of aircraft from museums such as the one in Poland although I'm not sure how the Kuwaities deal with such matters. So far I have not encountered the idea of putting up a Roland and then charging a dollar to smack it with a fifteen pound sledge like the bikers I once rode with used to do with a Honda or Yamaha to raise beer/party money. Or medical quacks grinding up Dr.Is as a medicinal cure for impotence ( Hey waiiiiiiitttt a minute, there might be something to that after all. In fact I've heard rumors that DML's 425/17 has extra curative powers for baldness, if mixed with powdered horn of the white rhinoceros on the cusp of Venus). As long as such attitudes and beliefs do not arise in the aviation world, I do not expect that such rare examples will fade away, they will simply move to a new location. (How's that for MacArthuresque speech?) Contact! I'm outta here The Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:19:58 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Max's E.III Message-ID: <199602270619.VAA06202@anchor> At 12:09 AM 2/27/96 -0500, Bill Shatzer wrote: > - Major open text surgery is performed here - >but I doubt we can accurately and positively the >exact shade of PC10 a particular aircraft is finished in. The Wrench disagrees: Come on Bill, we all know exactly what shade of PC10 was used on each and every British aircraft. The ugliest and most monotonous shade of Green the British could find - That's why we all prefer building good Cherman modles, Yah? The Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:24:48 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: The reality of PC 10 Message-ID: <199602270724.WAA08609@anchor> >Now I add my agreement with Charles and Bills general thrust. We can >strive for an authentic appearance, but at best it will be a matter of >opinion whether we succeed precisely. I'd like to have both those posts >printed and made compulsory reading for magazine reviewers, contest >judges and other blowhards. The Flyin' Wrench wonders: Does anyone out here in cyber 1917 suspect that the guys painting the original aircraft in 1917 couldn't get it right? War time logistics has to be experienced to be appreciated. That is why the rear guard in Vietnam got the flak jackets while the poor slick drivers got a butt full of NVA metal as they larked, none too carefree, about the hot LZs. Remember the story about the reason for mandating the word 'propellers' in documents during WWII? The British asked for two hundred airscrews which was promptly interperted as two hundred aircrews by an American clerk. That's the military, now picture different civilian factories during wartime turning out aircraft on which hinged the very future of the British Empire. 'Oi! We're building aeroplaines 'ere ain't we? And we're paintin' 'em all green ain't we? Noe shuv off mate' Even with today's paint technology the military still winds up with different shades of the same colour on their equipment. I well remember standing in the motorpool on a bright sunny day and looking down a seemingly endless row of new jeeps of which hardly any were the same shade of USMC drab. So if that is the case with today's technology what must have been the case eighty years ago? Just my two shillings worth Clear Prop! I'm outta here The Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 06:52:05 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum Message-ID: <199602270653.GAA15246@cso.com> On 27 Feb 96 at 1:08, The Flying Wrench typed diligantly: > > Sure would like to se a restored Rol.D.VIb....! > The Wrench adds his voice: > Hear, Hear, I'm beginning to think I like this enemy a/c as much > as the Pfalz. Working on the Roland D.II, I definitely like the Roland's shape. They "sort of" carried the shape of the D.II to the D.VI, except for that "clinker" part. That's what's really neat. The way the Pegasus kit has it represented just begs for a good wash and dry-brushing. Hmm...maybe my next venture (after the Nie.11, Roland D.II, c-o-r-s-a-i-r (shhh...), and I-16 of course)? However, I've also been looking at the Airfix C.II. Since I've only got two two-seaters on the shelf, I've been hankerin' to start another. Hmmm.... Matt -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Matthew Bittner WW1 Modeler, ecto subscriber meba@cso.com PowerBuilder developer; Omaha, Nebraska Disclaimer: opinions expressed by me are my responsibility only. "Ex-lovers make great speed bumps" - Bumper Sticker -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 08:07:34 PST From: stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu To: wwi Subject: Re[2]: Max's E.III Message-ID: <9601278254.AA825437403@SCCCGATE.seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu> -snip?- CHOP!! The Flyin' Wrench relives: Different colors fade at different rates, but as far as fabric integrity is concerned, with the aluminium pigmented undercoat, the fabric will long outlast its fading color. There are many faded fabric aircraft at your local airport that are still airworthy. Once I flew a literally ro --CHOP!!-- OK... we understand that you have little regard for human life... BUT let me ask a question for clarity's sake: didn't they start to use colored dopes and paint to preserve the fabric from the ravages of the sun? I know for a fact that they didn't have a decent hand lotion or alphahydroxy exfoliant at the time..... Seriously though; the planes' skins were supposedly being broken down by UV light, right? Wouldn't fading be an indication of that breaking down? ---Stephen Tontoni ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:29:13 -0600 From: iceman@ro.com (Eli Geher) To: wwi Subject: Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum Message-ID: <199602271729.LAA20630@sh1.ro.com> >Well, I'm planning a trip to Europe this year, about June. Anyone be so >kind as to post the address of the Museum concerned. > >Thanks, >Rob > According to Windsock Datafile 37, the Roland D.VI is at the Muzeum Lotnictwa Astronautyki, Skr Pocztowa 17, Alega Planu 6- Letniego 17, 30-969 Krakow 28. I accept no resposibility for errors in the preceding address. If wrong, its Peter Grosz's mistake. Take plenty of pictures. Eli Geher ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 14:20:43 -0500 From: "Joseph R. Boeke" To: " List, WWI Modelers" Subject: Potential new 1/48th kits... Message-ID: <9602271917.AA00197@coral.bucknell.edu> I picked up this flyer while I was down at Rosemont last weekend. Barry told me this is a customer who mail orders quite a bit from Rosemont, but didn't know/say much else. Although it is the WRONG ;~) scale, I though some of you older fellas might be intersted in replying to the questionaire. - Joe boeke@bucknell.edu --------------------------------------------- Attention World War I Modelers ! Attention Aircraft Modelers ! We are taking a survey for a company that wants to produce kits of World War I aircraft in 1/48th scale never before produced. These will be produced in resin and will be b"basic" kits, i.e. fuselage, wings, etc., and will sell for around $20.00 Below is a list of aircraft being considered. Please indicate your preferences. Additional comments are welcome. __ Dornier D1 __ Albatros DXI __ Junkers CL1 __ Rumpler D1 __ Bristol M.1C __ Other: We thank you for completing this questionaire. If you have any further questions, comments or ideas, please let us know. Thanks and happy modeling! C.S.M. Marketing 3245 E. Hillery Phoenix, AZ 85023 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:30:14 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Potential new 1/48th kits... Message-ID: <199602271331.NAA20479@cso.com> On 27 Feb 96 at 14:16, Joseph R. Boeke typed diligantly: > Although it is the WRONG ;~) scale, I though some of you older > fellas might be intersted in replying to the questionaire. Oh, come on Joe, it can't be the WRONG scale, can it? I thought it was the kink of scales, correct? ;-) > __ Dornier D1 > __ Albatros DXI > __ Junkers CL1 What! Come on, people, put your votes in, but put them in for "production" machines, and not these "experimentals". How about a Pfalz D.VIII? Now that would be another of the "larges" scale that I would buy. > __ Rumpler D1 > __ Bristol M.1C > __ Other: *** Pfalz D.VIII *** (and while you're at it, do one in that "real" scale, 1/72nd, won't you?) Planting tongue firmly in cheek, Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:38:13 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Re[2]: Max's E.III Message-ID: <199602271938.KAA29376@anchor> At 11:08 AM 2/27/96 -0500, stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu wrote: > OK... we understand that you have little regard for human > life... BUT let me ask a question for clarity's sake: didn't > they start to use colored dopes and paint to preserve the > fabric from the ravages of the sun? I know for a fact that > they didn't have a decent hand lotion or alphahydroxy > exfoliant at the time..... > > Seriously though; the planes' skins were supposedly being > broken down by UV light, right? Wouldn't fading be an > indication of that breaking down? > ---Stephen Tontoni > The Wrench elucidates: Absolutely correct - fading is definitely an indication that the UVs are doin' their thang to the fabric. BUT (that's a big but) as I said in a previous post, fading fabric is not solely indicative of fabric integrity. In other words: faded fabric = bad fabric? It ain't necessarily so (too much Gershwin last night). There are many more factors involved in fabric life than simply its exposure to UV light. Let me give another example here. I have run into the situation where I have found a hangered aircraft with apparently pristine fabric condition. At least as pristine as can be expected after 25 years, but the finish was still shiny. When I punch tested the fabric it was punched out unserviceable. In fact that is why the punch test was developed, because one cannot visually determine fabric condition. When discussing just the factors involved in UV exposure alone, there are multiple factors to consider. Factors such as length of exposure to sunlight (time), intensity of the sunlight (summer sun versus winter sun), Location of the sunlight (Maine or Texas, another factor of intensity), Type of dope, color of dope, (dark colors absorb more UV rays but do not necessarly fade as quickly) other types of coating processes used, number of coats applied etc.. Aside from the UV light factors there are humidity factors. High humidity, low humidity? High humidity can shorten the lifespan of fabric by a considerable margin. Because of the humidity factor, some dopes contain a fungicidal agents that prevent mold from forming on the fabric. Chemical impregnation is another factor I don't know if castor oil attacks fabric surfaces (I suspect it preserves the fabric) but many chemicals do, bleach is a classic example of this, that is why UNbleached linen is specified for aircraft fabric. Probably the worst condition for fabric are high heat, high humidity, and bright sunlight, conditions that would be found around the equator. Here in Alaska we probably have some of the better conditions for fabric life. Fewer bright, sunlit days, low humidity, and low temperatures. There are many more factors involved in fabric life than I have mentioned here but I hope these examples give you an idea of the complexity of the matter. To reiterate my earlier post, I have seen many faded fabric finishes that punched out at what would be interpreted as better than half the fabric's useful life. In other, more rare cases, I have seen nice finishes that concealed rotten fabric. So fading, while definatly indicating exposure to UV radiation, does not determine the stage of the fabric's life. Remember paint also fades. Painted aluminum finishes fade dramatically without affecting the soundness of the airframe, this is roughly analogus to dope and fabric. So while UV exposure and fabric life are definitely not mutually exclusive They are also not inexorably linked. Were this the case, the Airframe mechanics fabric assessment process would be much simpler as one could simply glance at an airplane and say "look at that faded fabric, time to re-fabric it". Contact! I'm outta here The Flyin' Wrench I was having tea with A Company when we heard a lot of shouting and went out to investigate. We found our men and the Germans standing on their respective parapets. Suddenly a salvo arrived but did no damage. Naturally both sides got down and our men started swearing at the Germans, when all at once a brave German got on to his parapet and shouted out 'We are very sorry about that; we hope no one was hurt. It is not our fault, it is that damned Prussian artillery'. Trench Warfare 1914-1918 > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:22:46 -0800 (PST) From: Erik Pilawskii To: wwi Subject: Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, Eli Geher wrote: > According to Windsock Datafile 37, the Roland D.VI is at the Muzeum > Lotnictwa Astronautyki, Skr Pocztowa 17, Alega Planu 6- Letniego 17, 30-969 > Krakow 28. I accept no resposibility for errors in the preceding address. > If wrong, its Peter Grosz's mistake. Yes, that would be correct as of 1989 (the last time I was in Poland). Of course, there have been some changes since then.... > > Take plenty of pictures. Got that right!!! Take an *enormous* number of pictures-- the Krakow musuem has (had?) some tremendous stuff. Cheers, Erik :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "The debacle [Gallipoli] was not so much the result of Kitchener and Churchill being incompetent-- rather, that that were appalling morons...." A.T.Magnuson, M.P. .............................................................................. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 05:29:35 GMT From: sbstd@iinet.net.au (Step by Step Training Development) Subject: Eduard Seimens Shuckert Message-ID: <4grggj$cd9@opera.iinet.net.au> Hi all! Has anybody out there in RMS built or is building the Eduard Shuckert kit(don't correct me on the spelling I don't have the instruction sheet in front of me!). Any major problems or traps for the unwary?? Thanks in advance. Michael Cornforth sbstd@iinet.com.au "Free advice is seldom free" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 14:17:31 -0800 From: bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Seimens Shuckert Message-ID: <199602272217.AA28921@ednet1.orednet.org> > >Hi all! > >Has anybody out there in RMS built or is building the Eduard Shuckert >kit(don't correct me on the spelling I don't have the instruction >sheet in front of me!). > >Any major problems or traps for the unwary?? > Well, for one, the lozenge decal for the wing is four-color rather than the apparently correct five-color. For two, the wing lozenge decal is continuous across the ailerons when it should be discontinuous. Upon discovering this, I became so discouraged the kit went back on the 'I'll build it later shelf' (hmmmm! that shelf -is- getting crowded!) and didn't look for further corrections. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "The only duty we owe to history is to rewrite it." -Oscar Wilde- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:39:55 -0500 From: Robert Woodbury To: wwi Subject: Re: Aircraft from Berlin Air Museum Message-ID: <31345B2B.2AC7@per.dwr.csiro.au> Hi Guys, Thanks for the address, now all I have to bo is find out exactly where Krakow is... Whilst I'm at it, does anyone have any recomendations as to other Air Museums that should be visited whilst in Europe? Sshhh, don't spread this around but I'm interested in Modern Aircraft too (post WWII). Thanks, Rob. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:48:30 +0800 (HKT) From: Jose Valenciano To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Eduard Seimens Shuckert Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, Step by Step Training Development wrote: > Has anybody out there in RMS built or is building the Eduard Shuckert > kit(don't correct me on the spelling I don't have the instruction > sheet in front of me!). > > Any major problems or traps for the unwary?? In the process of making it. So far I've closed up the fuselage and glued the lower wing on. My next step is to paint the sub assemblied. So far, no trouble expeienced. You might have to do some sanding to get the lower wing to fit properly. Since the fuselage is round in cross section be careful alignment wise (lower wing dihedral, etc. Also, when you glue the fuselage halves together, make sure you don't misalign the rear end (thereby making it point port or starboard). Good luck! ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 47 ********************