WWI Digest 43 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) 2) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by The Flying Wrench 3) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) 4) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by Jeff Friedrichs 23-Feb-1996 1622 5) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) 6) Rigging wire diameter by The Flying Wrench 7) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by The Flying Wrench 8) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) 9) Fokker cowling mottling technique - please? by The Flying Wrench 10) Re: Air Enthusiast Articles by iceman@ro.com (Eli Geher) 11) Engine turned cowlings? by bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) 12) Re: Max's E.III by bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) 13) Re: Engine turned cowlings? by Paul Butler 14) Re: Rigging wire diameter by "Matt Bittner" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:09:45 -0600 From: djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <9602231909.AA08548@deimos.tx.iex.com> >Perhaps, but I am not committing to it. It has taken me 10 years since the >my wife gave it to me for Christmas (yes, she has made sure I know that! :-) >I have been working on it steadily since last Rhinebeck, but I am not yet >ready to cover. Ouch! They are remarkably good at this, aren't they :-) >Now to add to my problems, Rhinebeck has rebuilt their Nieuport-11 and is >using a mustard color, which is actually pretty close. They did use pigment >though. On the flip side, it is not being done in Italian colors, so the >color may be right for some, but not necessarily mine :-( I need to talk >to them some more.... If you get any more info i would appreciate it. I chatted with Gene quite a bit but he didn't tell me which color they were using (of course like an idiot I forgot to ask). So I would like to know. I do have video and still of this plane sans cowel and engine. Shows the front structure very nicely. I also have stills/video of the disassembled Le Rhone. >The colors are right out the Windsock (issue??). I will try to remember >to bring them in next week. BTW - there is a picture of my Nieuport in >my shop at http://www.mainstream.net/~jeff/images/nport1.jpg and nport2.jpg. Thanks! Are you using Sig Dope or Randolphs of Automotive paint? If you use Sig when you get a formula could you post that? >Again though, the question comes to which color do I want and how do I >obtain it. I am planning on using super coverite, which is available in the >antique color (which is a light brown) or white. Good luck! Doug -------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (214)301-1307 | djones@iex.com -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:29:06 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <199602232029.LAA28902@anchor> BTW - there is a picture of my Nieuport in >>my shop at http://www.mainstream.net/~jeff/images/nport1.jpg and nport2.jpg. The Flying Wrench appreciates: Beautiful, absolutly beautiful. I really like the internal rigging and the wood reinforcements on the empennage. If I were doing a project on such a large scale, I believe I would search out some very, very, very, light weight, tight weave, Grade A cotton or muslin linen and cover it with the real thing. As I said before you can't beat the real thing for scale realism. One other thing about cloth vs Monokote or the like, is that cloth is much stronger than the materials used for model covering and any necessary patching only adds to the realistic look of the aircraft. I assume a chainsaw engine, or some such large bore powerplant will be used to power this beast giving more than enough power to lift a cloth covered aircraft. The Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:40:06 -0600 From: djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <9602232039.AA09814@deimos.tx.iex.com> >Beautiful, absolutly beautiful. I really like the internal rigging and the >wood reinforcements on the empennage. If I were doing a project on such a >large scale, I believe I would search out some very, very, very, light >weight, tight weave, Grade A cotton or muslin linen and cover it with the >real thing. As I said before you can't beat the real thing for scale realism. >One other thing about cloth vs Monokote or the like, is that cloth is much >stronger than the materials used for model covering and any necessary >patching only adds to the realistic look of the aircraft. I assume a >chainsaw engine, or some such large bore powerplant will be used to power >this beast giving more than enough power to lift a cloth covered aircraft. I agree! Very very nice! There is a nice grade of sailplane cloth (full scale) that is about 1.8 0z/sq ft which I have covered a 1/6 N-17 with. I am not sure that muslin or cotton would work. Too heavy, me thinks. This plane should fly nicely on a Laser 70 (0.7 cu. in. 4c) or maybe a Saito 80. I don't belive it will require more. It is a 1/5 scale model. I don't have my Proctor catalog handy. Jeff will let us know. Proctor build a very very nice kit. Many end up uncovered as static models. Pricey too! I think the 11 is the cheapest kit they have at ~$300. Doug -------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (214)301-1307 | djones@iex.com -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 16:31:16 EST From: Jeff Friedrichs 23-Feb-1996 1622 To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <9602232131.AA24398@us2rmc.zko.dec.com> Thanks for the compliments! Yes, it is a 1/5 (well 1/~5.5) scale, with a wingspan of 61". A saito .90 twin cylinder 4c fits just perfectly in the cowl. No mods were needed to the firewall. (The engine was my real stumbling block for a long time. I really wasn't happy with the alternatives until I found this last summer.) Yes, Proctor kits are a bit expensive... But this was an long term "investment"and I don't believe it was quite as expensive in 1985!! :-) But heck, it has only really cost about $30/year!! :-) Doug, how did the color come out using the sailplane cloth?? Did you clear dope it or did you use color. Cheers, jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:19:50 -0600 From: djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <9602232219.AA11282@deimos.tx.iex.com> >Yes, it is a 1/5 (well 1/~5.5) scale, with a wingspan of 61". A saito .90 >twin cylinder 4c fits just perfectly in the cowl. No mods were needed to >the firewall. (The engine was my real stumbling block for a long time. I >really wasn't happy with the alternatives until I found this last summer.) An interesting choice! Good looking puppy. From the test I have seen (a fellow in our club had one) not any more powerful than a .70. >Yes, Proctor kits are a bit expensive... But this was an long term "investment"and I don't believe it was quite as expensive in 1985!! :-) But heck, it >has only really cost about $30/year!! :-) Good point! It would have been cheap at twice the price! >Doug, how did the color come out using the sailplane cloth?? Did you clear >dope it or did you use color. It is your basic white. It hasn't been doped yet. Since I am doing a 17 it will get Sig's Aluminum dope. The material is light and shrinks very very well. And the last time I priced it it was cheap. About $2.50 / yd. Comes in 60" width. Available from Aircraft Spruce and Supply. Doug -------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (214)301-1307 | djones@iex.com -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:26:38 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Subject: Rigging wire diameter Message-ID: <199602232226.NAA03110@anchor> The Wrench restates: I asked this question in another post and I would like to state it again as I have a dissenting opinion. This question was: I have also become quite fond of using fine, stainless wire for rigging after I built the DML D.VII. It appears that .004 is about the correct diameter for 1/48 rigging is this the case, or is a different size more to scale? One reply was offered: I would say that .004 is too small for 1/48th. That's the size I use for 1/72nd. I'm not sure what the diameter is, but I use some wire that I've had for *years* that I got from my orthodontist. Works wonderfully. I guess I could extrapolate the answer from .004 for 1/72 = X for 1/48 but I would like to know if anyone has actually miked it out: Real flying wire is X therefore 1/48, 1/32, 1/28 is X. God - just like an Algerbra class, but better than: Train A leaves the station at . . . . you know the drill - so does your othodontist. Is this dental wire rigid and straight like the wire in a DML kit or is it like wire on a spool - must be held straight until glue dries? Thanks again for your input. The Flyin' Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:48:38 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <199602232248.NAA03852@anchor> The Flyin' Wrench wants to know: First it was stated: >>I agree! Very very nice! There is a nice grade of sailplane cloth (full >>scale) that is about 1.8 0z/sq ft which I have covered a 1/6 N-17 with. Then it was continued: >It is your basic white. It hasn't been doped yet. Since I am doing a 17, it >will get Sig's Aluminum dope. The material is light and shrinks very very >well. And the last time I priced it it was cheap. About $2.50 / yd. Comes in >60" width. Available from Aircraft Spruce and Supply. Now I want to know: Yeah, yeah, yeah, (do I sound like an old beatles song or what?) This is all very well and good, but did you REALLY go the distance and rib stitch and tape the entire wing structure? That's what I'd like to see. Boy nothing like spending a couple of weeks with a needle and thread to add super scale realism. - The Flyin' Wrench - Incidentally for all of you really serious folks out there. These post are not intended to be condescending or demeaning. It just that I have a rather wry sense of humor that often borders on the cynical. Such posts are written with a very tongue-in-cheek attitude and in no way are intended to demean the individual such posts are addressed to - unless of course they deserve it. Hey, what do you know anyway? But I wax; And like the ear, You will not hear, If I continue on. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:56:10 -0600 From: djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <9602232256.AA11725@deimos.tx.iex.com> > >The Flyin' Wrench wants to know: > >First it was stated: > >>>I agree! Very very nice! There is a nice grade of sailplane cloth (full >>>scale) that is about 1.8 0z/sq ft which I have covered a 1/6 N-17 with. > >Then it was continued: > >>It is your basic white. It hasn't been doped yet. Since I am doing a 17, it >>will get Sig's Aluminum dope. The material is light and shrinks very very >>well. And the last time I priced it it was cheap. About $2.50 / yd. Comes in >>60" width. Available from Aircraft Spruce and Supply. > >Now I want to know: > >Yeah, yeah, yeah, (do I sound like an old beatles song or what?) This is all >very well and good, but did you REALLY go the distance and rib stitch and >tape the entire wing structure? That's what I'd like to see. Boy nothing >like spending a couple of weeks with a needle and thread to add super scale >realism. Not yet! But since it's all an illusion...just imagine I have sewn till my fingers are raw ;-) >Incidentally for all of you really serious folks out there. These post are >not intended to be condescending or demeaning. It just that I have a rather >wry sense of humor that often borders on the cynical. Such posts are written >with a very tongue-in-cheek attitude and in no way are intended to demean >the individual such posts are addressed to - unless of course they deserve it. In which case the hell with 'em! >Hey, what do you know anyway? As much as some, more than others not as much as a few! Doug -------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (214)301-1307 | djones@iex.com -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:34:43 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Subject: Fokker cowling mottling technique - please? Message-ID: <199602232334.OAA06196@anchor> The Flyin' Wrench request: Could whomever (It may have been Mr. Shatzer) please repost the technique for recreating the mottled effect on the Fokker E.III cowling. I was jumping between post and my crummy, malfunctioning, Microsoft mouse and its ancillary cursor jumped from the little minus sign to the little trash can and inadvertantly I deleted the post. First I threw the mouse against the wall, then I picked it up and repaired it. Actually this mouse has some of the best mice innards I have ever seen - high quality, must have been one of Gates eariler attempts at hardware. So now my mouse works, but I can no longer can work on my E.III cowling. If you still have this post in your "Message out" file please repost and I'll be forever grateful - well at least until I need something else. Then I'll simply say "Hey - what have you done for me lately?" Goooollllllyyy, Thank yew, Thank yew, Thank yew, sargent Carter. (I knew I spent too long in the Corps). The Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 22:46:23 -0600 From: iceman@ro.com (Eli Geher) To: wwi Subject: Re: Air Enthusiast Articles Message-ID: <199602240446.WAA25979@sh1.ro.com> >Could you send me which issue? I am having a terrible time here in Dallas >finding a copy. A couple of stores carry the mag but are sold out! It is >possible they don't have it yet or they will order it for me. I am in the >process of building a 1/6 SE5a that I want to do in a scheme that is >different from the usual drab PC-10 ships. Its the Jan-Feb 1966 issue, number 61. The SE-5 article describes the restored machine at the Science Museum in London(?). Its painted overall silver with black civil markings and has exhaust pipes that run past the end of the tail. The pipes are wrapped with white insulating tape. Its not a real colorful scheme, but it would probably show up well in flight. There are several useful photos and a profile, but no way of telling what the upper surface markings are, if there are any. More info should be available somewhere, since it is an existing airframe. Is the museum on the Internet? Let me know if you run out of options on getting a copy. The store where I bought mine had a good stack of them. Unfortunately, its pretty far out of my normal orbit. Eli ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 22:18:03 -0800 From: bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Engine turned cowlings? Message-ID: <199602240618.AA06735@ednet1.osl.or.gov> While following up on the recent Fokker E.III discussion, I stumbled across an interesting statement in Peter Grosz, et al's Austro- Hungarian army aircraft book. Commenting on the colors of the A/H E.III's, it sez, "The metal cowling and fairing were engine turned to resist corrosion." Now I'd always been under the impression that the 'engine turning' was estentially a cosmetic practice - that the early cowlings were manufactured by placing a sheet of aluminum over a male mold and wanging away with a hammer until the sheet of aluminum was in the shape of a cowl and the 'engine turning' was just a means of covering up/smoothing out all those hundreds of hammer marks. Admittedly, cosmetics on a -war- plane doesn't make much sense but it wouldn't be the first time a peace time practice was continued during war 'cause "that's the way we've always done it, mein Herr." So, my question: Is Grosz right and my impression wrong? If so, just -how- would 'engine turning' increase the corrosion resistance? It would seem that if you want to protect metal against corrosion, ya paint it or plate it, not put little swirlly marks on it. On the other hand, Grosz is -seldom- wrong. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "The only duty we owe to history is to rewrite it." -Oscar Wilde- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 22:41:40 -0800 From: bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Max's E.III Message-ID: <199602240641.AA16132@ednet1.osl.or.gov> > >The Flyin' Wrench ponders: > >I have seen a number of references in the past that indicated Max Immelmann >Fokker E.III was doped green. Was this the case and if so, what shade of >green was it? The only reference I have is the new Squadron # 158, (which is >what prompted me to buy the kit, after all what good is reference with >nothing to build?) This publication's colour profiles show a Flik 4, E.I >with a green paint scheme but give no indication that the German Air Service >ever used this scheme. Did Max fly an Austro-Hungarian Fokker. Did he have >his own aircraft doped green or were the references mistaken? Can anyone >clear this matte up? > Dunno for sure about the E.III but Peter Grosz, et al's book on the Austro-Hungarian army aircraft claims the greenish-grey color for the AH A.III (Fokker E.I) 03.51 and that aircraft was initially accepted by the German air service and only subsequently transferred to Austro-Hungarian service. And, there is a photo in the book of this a/c with -both- the German (64/15) and the AH (03.51) designations on the fuselage so it was obviously -not- repainted upon acceptance by AH. So, if Grosz is right about the color of 03.51, then it seems quite likely that at least -some- Fokker Einedekkers in German service were greenish gray (or, grayish green, take your pick!) Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "The only duty we owe to history is to rewrite it." -Oscar Wilde- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:51:15 +1100 (EST) From: Paul Butler To: wwi Subject: Re: Engine turned cowlings? Message-ID: <199602240651.RAA16397@werple.net.au> At 01:19 AM 24/02/96 -0500, Bill Shazner wrote: > > Snip Snip > >So, my question: Is Grosz right and my impression wrong? If so, >just -how- would 'engine turning' increase the corrosion resistance? >It would seem that if you want to protect metal against corrosion, >ya paint it or plate it, not put little swirlly marks on it. > >On the other hand, Grosz is -seldom- wrong. > >Cheers, > >-- >Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - > IMHO I think Mr Grosz is wrong on this account. Nothing in my 13 year stint in the aluminum industry (notice the Yankee spelling) suggested that little swirlly marks would increase the corrosion resistance of aluminium one little bit. However it is quite possible that the metal they used in WW1 was relatively pure and if I remember correctly, the pure metal is more corrosion resistant than many alloys. This is not strictly true of course because there are specialist alloys that are particularly corrosion resistant in specific environments but I doubt that the alloys available then were particularly sophisticated. I think, as does Bill, that the swirly marks were just used to hide the dints. Paul Butler ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:32:01 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Rigging wire diameter Message-ID: <199602240933.JAA12260@cso.com> On 23 Feb 96 at 17:25, The Flying Wrench typed diligantly: > I guess I could extrapolate the answer from .004 for 1/72 = X for 1/48 but I > would like to know if anyone has actually miked it out: Real flying wire is > X therefore 1/48, 1/32, 1/28 is X. God - just like an Algerbra class, but > better than: Train A leaves the station at . . . . you know the drill - > so does your othodontist. Is this dental wire rigid and straight like the > wire in a DML kit or is it like wire on a spool - must be held straight > until glue dries? It's rigid, but not as "dense" as the wire supplied by DML. Definitely softer, and easier to use - and especially cut. Granted, most of it has to be rolled, but as I said it's a lot easier than DML's. Matt ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 43 ********************