WWI Digest 42 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by Jeff Friedrichs 22-Feb-1996 1656 2) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) 3) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by Jose Valenciano 4) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by The Flying Wrench 5) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by The Flying Wrench 6) by iceman@ro.com (Eli Geher) 7) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) 8) Eduard Fokker E.III by The Flying Wrench 9) Tom's Model Works Detailing by The Flying Wrench 10) Max's E.III by The Flying Wrench 11) Attention: All Eduard Fokker E.III constructors by Jose Valenciano 12) New Blue Rider Decal releases by John Napper 13) Re: Tom's Model Works Detailing by "Matt Bittner" 14) Re: Max's E.III by "Matt Bittner" 15) Re: Eduard Fokker E.III by "Matt Bittner" 16) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by "Matt Bittner" 17) Re: Attention: All Eduard Fokker E.III constructors by "Randy J. Ray" 18) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by Jeff Friedrichs 23-Feb-1996 1128 19) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) 20) Re: Attention: All Eduard Fokker E.III constructors by The Flying Wrench 21) Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? by The Flying Wrench ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 17:06:57 EST From: Jeff Friedrichs 22-Feb-1996 1656 To: wwi Subject: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <9602222206.AA29407@us2rmc.zko.dec.com> Hi, I looked through the archive and could not find much about this.. I am building a Proctor Nieuport-11 R/C model, painted in Italian colors. It will have red/white/green on the underside of the wings and stripes across the fuse. This is patterned after an Italian book that I have. However, I am still at a lose about what color the "unpainted" fabric should be. From all accounts, (including the author of the book, who works at the Macchi factory and has sent me a number of copies of the plans!) the fabric was not painted any color. It was simply dope on linen. However, the accounts (and drawings) show that the color is much more of a mustard color than an "antique" brown. So, do I try to match the color in the picture, which will probably require that I actually paint the fabric, or should I just approximate it based on the authors letters and the Windsock data file? (I do have the FS numbers for the red, white and green, and so those are easy to document..) Thanks in advance! J. Jeffery Friedrichs Ask me about Young Eagles!! friedrichs@vmsspt.enet.dec.com Sundowner N24005, Luscombe NC71599 ASMEL-IA http://www.mainstream.com/~jeff Nashua, NH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:13:19 -0600 From: djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <9602222313.AA28998@deimos.tx.iex.com> >I am building a Proctor Nieuport-11 R/C model, painted in Italian colors. It >will have red/white/green on the underside of the wings and stripes across the >fuse. This is patterned after an Italian book that I have. Sounds nic! Will we see it at Rhinebeck this year? >However, I am still at a lose about what color the "unpainted" fabric >should be. From all accounts, (including the author of the book, who >works at the Macchi factory and has sent me a number of copies of the plans!) >the fabric was not painted any color. It was simply dope on linen. However, >the accounts (and drawings) show that the color is much more of a mustard >color than an "antique" brown. What about the Antique Coverite? It has a yellow tinge to it. Might work. >(I do have the FS numbers for the red, white and green, and so those are >easy to document..) Are you going to post these numbers so they can go into the Web page? Would be nice to have some additional ones. I hope to add formula for the French colors for the 17 I hope to finish soon. Doug -------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (214)301-1307 | djones@iex.com -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:29:30 +0800 (HKT) From: Jose Valenciano To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Jeff Friedrichs 22-Feb-1996 1656 wrote: > Hi, > > I looked through the archive and could not find much about this.. > > I am building a Proctor Nieuport-11 R/C model, painted in Italian colors. It > will have red/white/green on the underside of the wings and stripes across the > fuse. This is patterned after an Italian book that I have. red/WHITE/green? Are you sure? What I know of is that for the underside of the wings they left the white portion unpainted (fabric color). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 15:44:19 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <199602230044.PAA20373@anchor> >However, I am still at a lose about what color the "unpainted" fabric >should be. From all accounts, (including the author of the book, who >works at the Macchi factory and has sent me a number of copies of the plans!) >the fabric was not painted any color. It was simply dope on linen. However, >the accounts (and drawings) show that the color is much more of a mustard >color than an "antique" brown. The Wrench comments: The fabric your asking about was unbleached, white muslin, linen. To get a good idea of the of the colour, go down to your local fabric store and ask for a scrap of unbleached, white muslin, linen. This is the colour of the fabric. Take some dope and dope it up with clear dope this will show you exactly what the fabric looked like. Undoped it should be an antique ivory colour. Doped fabric should be slightly darker, somewhat more translucent in appearance. You can't beat real life for a perfect example. However the Italian book I have with your colour scheme, shows the Nie.17 fabric with doped aluminium pigment coloration. The aluminium colour scheme was probably more common on the Nie.17 then the clear doped colouration. Basically the aluminium colour of the fabric illustrated was obtaind by mixing aluminium powder with clear dope. It can be replicated using a good quality silver paint. I say silver and not aluminium, as most aluminium paints are far to "shiny" to replicate the darker color of the aluminium pigmented dope. This topic was thoroughly covered on this forum recently and can be found in the 1996 archives at the WWI home page. The Flyin' Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:20:00 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <199602230120.QAA21652@anchor> >I am building a Proctor Nieuport-11 R/C model, painted in Italian colors. It >will have red/white/green on the underside of the wings and stripes across the >fuse. This is patterned after an Italian book that I have. The Wrench adds: One other comment. The book I have shows the red and green colouration on the outer wing panels of both upper and lower under-wing surfaces. The colours on the lower wing start at the second rib out (not including the root rib) from the fuselage. Both upper and lower wing undersurfaces have the first eight ribs from the wing tip in, painted. Remembering that all locations are identified from the sitting position in the cockpit, the port or left undersurfaces are painted bright red and the starboard or right undersurfaces are painted bright green, just like a ship's navigation lights. The center section is silver on both upper and lower wing undersurfaces. The entire aircraft is doped aluminium in colour. There are no fuselage stripes, just the Italian roundel and the aircraft ID number "Ni 3632" on both sides. The Id number is near the upper fuselage longeron just behind of the aft cockpit former. A small blue pennant with an eagle and crown on it, is also seen just behind of the aft cockpit former on the port side only, partially obscuring the aircraft ID number. The rudder has the green, white and red, full coverage, fin flash in equal thirds, with the green furthest forward, white in the center and red on the aft portion of the rudder. Standard Italian roundels are on the upper wing centered on the fourth rib in from the tip on both sides and these overlap the third and the fifth wing rib by approximately 1/6 the diameter of the roundel. It sounds like this is a different scheme than what you have. The Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:37:22 -0600 From: iceman@ro.com (Eli Geher) To: wwi Message-ID: <199602230437.WAA03661@sh1.ro.com> I just picked up the current issue of Air International and was delighted to find 2 articles which might be of interest to the list. Both deal with postwar usage of WWI fighters. The first is about SE-5 skywriter conversions and the second is about the Fokker D.VII. Sadly, the Fokker article is part II of a comprehensive review of worldwide service with many military and civilian users. There are quite a few Fokker variants and alternate schemes for the jaded modeller. I'll have to hunt down the preceding issue and check out part I. This is the first time in years that I've seen Air International for sale at a newstand in the US. I let my subscription lapse several years ago because the I felt the editorial content had gone downhill so far that I coldn't justify the expense. Based on the content of this issue, I will have to reconsider. Eli Geher ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:05:33 -0800 From: bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <199602230505.AA08084@ednet1.osl.or.gov> > >>However, I am still at a lose about what color the "unpainted" fabric >>should be. From all accounts, (including the author of the book, who >>works at the Macchi factory and has sent me a number of copies of the plans!) >>the fabric was not painted any color. It was simply dope on linen. However, >>the accounts (and drawings) show that the color is much more of a mustard >>color than an "antique" brown. > >The Wrench comments: -snips- >However the Italian book I have with your colour scheme, shows the Nie.17 >fabric with doped aluminium pigment coloration. The aluminium colour scheme >was probably more common on the Nie.17 then the clear doped colouration. >Basically the aluminium colour of the fabric illustrated was obtaind by >mixing aluminium powder with clear dope. It can be replicated using a good >quality silver paint. I say silver and not aluminium, as most aluminium >paints are far to "shiny" to replicate the darker color of the aluminium >pigmented dope. This topic was thoroughly covered on this forum recently and >can be found in the 1996 archives at the WWI home page. > Indeed, I think the wrench speaks the truth on this 'un (despite his fixation on silver/blue triplanes! ) Most Italian Nieuports were aluminum and only rarely (perhaps never) was the 'white' Italian tricolor on the undersurfaces of Italian aircraft actually white - rather the 'white' area was left in the 'usual' undersurface color, either aluminum (Nieuports and the Macchi license built copies) or natural linen (just about everything else.) A similar practice seems to have been used by Austria-Hungary for the a/c with red/'white'/red undersurface markings. In most cases, the 'white' areas were not actually white by rather left in the natural fabric color. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "The only duty we owe to history is to rewrite it." -Oscar Wilde- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:19:53 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Subject: Eduard Fokker E.III Message-ID: <199602230619.VAA02794@anchor> The Flyin' Wrench inquires: I just purchased Eduard's Fokker E.III, the Udet edition. This is my first Eduard and I have a few questions concerning their kit(s). It's a nice kit, perhaps a little heavy on the moulding, but nice. It appears that this was once an all plastic kit with the metal engine and photoetched parts added later on, is this the case? I noted that the Sopwith Baby I looked at awhile back was all plastic. Are metal components standard for Eduard kits or are they primarly plastic with a few examples upgraded to the metal details? Also the moulding looks identical to the Baby's. Is this the norm for these kits Are any idiosyncracies in this kit that I need to know about before starting construction? How does one go about reproducing the mottled cowling pattern found on the the E.I. Thanks for your input on these questions Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:19:55 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Subject: Tom's Model Works Detailing Message-ID: <199602230619.VAA02796@anchor> The flyin' Wrench asks: I am considering purchasing some photo detailing from Tom's model Works. I was wondering about the quality of their guns, cockpit and other such detailing. How does it stack up to other manufactures detailing (of which I cannot recall at this time). Is it worth the money or would I be better advised to use another source? I have also become quite fond of using fine, stainless wire for rigging after I built the DML D.VII. It appears that .004 is about the correct diameter for 1/48 rigging is this the case, or is a different size more to scale? Thanks again. Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:19:57 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Subject: Max's E.III Message-ID: <199602230619.VAA02801@anchor> The Flyin' Wrench ponders: I have seen a number of references in the past that indicated Max Immelmann Fokker E.III was doped green. Was this the case and if so, what shade of green was it? The only reference I have is the new Squadron # 158, (which is what prompted me to buy the kit, after all what good is reference with nothing to build?) This publication's colour profiles show a Flik 4, E.I with a green paint scheme but give no indication that the German Air Service ever used this scheme. Did Max fly an Austro-Hungarian Fokker. Did he have his own aircraft doped green or were the references mistaken? Can anyone clear this matte up? Thanks The Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:12:56 +0800 (HKT) From: Jose Valenciano To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Attention: All Eduard Fokker E.III constructors Message-ID: Greetings fellow cultists, I was thinking of posting a few tips on making the Eduard Fokker E.III a while back. With Mr. F. Wrench's inquiries on this very subject. I decided that that time is now. So here goes: Many reviewers state that the cowl and the upper decking don't fit well to the fuselage. They have you reshaping these parts to get the proper fit. The same reviewers say that the photoetch cockpit is too wide for the cavity in which it is supposed to sit. They would have you shaving plastic from the inner fuselage walls. DON'T DO ANY OF THESE OPERATIONS! All that actually need be done is to add a 0.5mm card spacer between the two fuselage halves from the firewall up to and including the cockpit area. I've found out that by doing this the cowl and upper decking fit perfectly and that the cockpit etch slides in in a problem free manner. You might want to replace the etch wall structures though as some consider it too flat. If you do, don't use plastic rod as these structures weren't made of tube but of wood. Plastic strip would be better. Now to answer Flyin' Wrenches other questions: On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, The Flying Wrench wrote: > The Flyin' Wrench inquires: > > I just purchased Eduard's Fokker E.III, the Udet edition. > It appears that this was once an all plastic kit with the metal engine and > photoetched parts added later on, is this the case? Dunno, mine came with the etch and the metal. They probably decided that we deserved better and threw these in before releasing. >I noted that the Sopwith > Baby I looked at awhile back was all plastic. Are metal components standard > for Eduard kits or are they primarly plastic with a few examples upgraded to > the metal details? All my Eduard kits come with the etch and the metal, even the S. Baby. >Also the moulding looks identical to the Baby's. Is this > the norm for these kits Their moulding gets better everytime. In their Alb. C.III they want you to shave off the plastic detail on the fuselage that simulates metal fittings on the real thing, replace them with the etch parts. I'm not doing that. The detail is so crisp that replacing it would be a waste of time and material (you could use the fittings for other projects. But I hope Eduard doesn't hear my comment, they might go easy on etch detail next time). > Are any idiosyncracies in this kit that I need to know about before starting > construction? I usually use super glue when i assemble. But affixing the wings to the fuselage it would be better to use liquid cement to get a nice strong weld. Prop the parts up on a jig (cassettes and paint bottles maybe) and leave it alone for a week or 2. Make sure that the mice and the dwarfs are kept away as it dries. Do the same for the spindly undercarriage. If I remember right the inspection panel on the fuselage should only be found on the port side, please check. If you're doing a clear doped machine don't forget to add the grommets on the trailing edges underneath the wings and horiz. tail. Add the stitching underneath the fuselage centerline as well. > How does one go about reproducing the mottled cowling pattern found on the > the E.I. I'm quite satisfied with my method which is to: 1) Use Humbrol Polished Steel and Polished Aluminum. 2) Spray on the Steel, let dry thoroughly then polish (I've discovered that polishing with an index card works better that polishing with a soft cloth or tissue, but let the paint dry hard first 3-6 hrs. would be sufficient) 3) With a fine brush draw P. Aluminum doughnuts side by side along the surface. On the fuse. they must line up horizontally, no need to align them vertically. On the cowl they must align along the cowl's circumference. The size of my doughnuts are about 1.5mm diam. 4) Lastly load up your airbrush with P. Aluminum and cover the surface with very light strokes, toning down the contrast between the two shades. 5) Sit back and admire your handiwork. Your friends will get eyestrain figuring out how you did it. Oh, I just remebered, as you make the model be very sure that the prop will be able to twirl when the model is finished. All truly well crafted models must have a kinetic component to justify their existence. I'm sure all our cultists agree on this? ********************************************************************* Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph sitarist tel. (632) 921-26-75 Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 10:15:12 GMT From: John Napper To: wwi Subject: New Blue Rider Decal releases Message-ID: <825070570.8066.0@stratauk.demon.co.uk> For your information, the following are Blue Rider's recent and new releases. November 1995 releases are available now. March 1996 releases will be available on 23 March 1996. e-mail Blue Rider on: br_kits@cosmos-uk.org or insignia@stratauk.demon.co.uk Blue Rider Models 43a Glasford Street London SW17 9HL United Kingdom Tel: +44 181 672 3049 1/72 DECALS BR 237 Jasta 19 Fokker Dr.I's Decals for three colorful Fokker Dr.I's of Jasta 19 Release date November 1995 Price 3.50 BR 238 WW2 Slovak Military and Civil Aviation Decals for Avia B.534, Aero A.100 and Focke Wulf Fw 58-C Release date November 1995 Price 3.50 BR 239 Austro-Hungarian Phnix D.I and D.II Decals for nine Phnix D.I and D.II fighters Release date November 1995 Price 3.50 BR 240 Airco DH9 markings Decals for nine DH9 schemes. Previously issued with Kit no. BR115. Release date March 1996 Price 3.50 BR 241 UFAG C.I markings Decals for eleven UFAG C.I schemes. Previously issued with Kit no. BR117. Release date March 1996 Price 3.50 BR 242 Chinese Air Force 1937-45 Decals for Polikarpov I-16 (3), Tupolev SB-2, P-38 Lightning. Release date March 1996 Price 3.50 BR 243 Colourful Pup 1918 Decals for one Red, White and Blue diamond covered RAF Sopwith Pup. Release date March 1996 Price 3.50 BR 244 Imperial Russian Air Service 1914-17 Decals for Farman HF20 (2), Farman MF11, Nieuport 12 & Nieuport 17. Release date March 1996 Price 3.50 BR 245 Fokker Dr.Is of Jasta 11 & 27 Decals for four Fokker Dr.Is. Release date March 1996 Price 3.50 BR 303 Rumanian Me109G in US Colours Decals for one Me109G in US markings, August 1944 Release date November 1995 Price 2.00 BR 304 UN Harvard in Lebanon 1958 Decals for one aircraft. Release date March 1996 Price 2.00 BR 305 Purto Rico Air National Guard Decals for one Republic F-47N Thunderbolt. Release date March 1996 Price 2.00 BR 409 Cambodian/Kampuchean MiG-21's Decals for four MiG-21 bis Release date November 1995 Price 2.80 BR 410 P-38L in Yugoslav Markings Decals for two variants of this aircraft in Yugoslav colours, May 1945 Release date November 1995 Price 2.80 BR 411 Polish and Czech Albatros D.III Oef. Decals for four Series 253 Oeffag built Albatros D.III. Release date March 1996 Price 2.80 BR 412 Nicaragua Air Force Decals for Republic F-47D Thunderbolt & Harvard. Release date March 1996 Price 2.80 BR 809 Slovene Air Force 1995 Decals for Pilatus PC-9, Bell 412 and Bell Jet Ranger. NOW WITH UPDATE SHEET (March 1996). Release date November 1995 Price 2.80 BR 810 Latvian Army Reserve 1995 Decals for one Antonov An-2 Colt. Release date March 1996 Price 2.00 PLUS Issue One of INSIGNIA Magazine Includes 1/72 scale decals for two Polikarpov R-1 aircraft. Publication date November 1995 Price 4.50 Issue Two of INSIGNIA Magazine Includes 1/72 scale decals for a Mil Mi-8 Hip captured by the Slovenes in 1991. Publication date March 1996 Price 4.50 Magazine is available on subscription for 22.00 GBP for four issues. Please contact Blue Rider for further details and overseas subscription rates. All prices quoted above in GBP Sterling. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 07:02:08 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Tom's Model Works Detailing Message-ID: <199602230703.HAA10144@cso.com> On 23 Feb 96 at 1:18, The Flying Wrench typed diligantly: > I am considering purchasing some photo detailing from Tom's model Works. I > was wondering about the quality of their guns, cockpit and other such > detailing. How does it stack up to other manufactures detailing (of which I > cannot recall at this time). Is it worth the money or would I be better > advised to use another source? I have also become quite fond of using fine, > stainless wire for rigging after I built the DML D.VII. It appears that .004 > is about the correct diameter for 1/48 rigging is this the case, or is a > different size more to scale? I use - and enjoy - Tom's photoetched. It's some of the thinnest on the market (which is great for 1/72nd scale). I haven't had a chance yet to use any of their guns (truthfully, they frighten me), but would at least use their cooling jackets, on some other's metal, resin or plastic guns. Sure, some of the stuff comes out flat, but you can either paint them up to give them depth, or do what I do: use the photoetch as a guide, and cut the parts out of plastic. I would say that .004 is too small for 1/48th. That's the size I use for 1/72nd. I'm not sure what the diameter is, but I use some wire that I've had for *years* that I got from my orthodontist. Works wonderfully. Just my $.02, Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 07:02:08 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Max's E.III Message-ID: <199602230703.HAA10151@cso.com> On 23 Feb 96 at 1:19, The Flying Wrench typed diligantly: > I have seen a number of references in the past that indicated Max > Immelmann Fokker E.III was doped green. Was this the case and if > so, what shade of green was it? The only reference I have is the > new Squadron # 158, (which is what prompted me to buy the kit, > after all what good is reference with nothing to build?) This > publication's colour profiles show a Flik 4, E.I with a green paint > scheme but give no indication that the German Air Service ever used > this scheme. Did Max fly an Austro-Hungarian Fokker. Did he have > his own aircraft doped green or were the references mistaken? Can > anyone clear this matte up? Oooo... Time for the sparks to fly! :-) This is one of the current controversies. One individual sent a letter to Rimmel explaining why he though *most* E.III's were doped green at the factory. He provided some great arguments. Personally, I would agree. His biggest pitch was to look at the photo's that were taken with other, *documented* clear doped aircraft. They're too dark to be clear doped. I brought up this theory to Greg VanWyngarden, and although he was non-committal, he agreed with the documented photos. What shade of green? Look at the cover of the E.III Datafile. This is - from what I've heard - very close. Can't give you a Methuen or FS equivalent, so you'll have to find these on your own. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 07:02:08 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Eduard Fokker E.III Message-ID: <199602230703.HAA10147@cso.com> On 23 Feb 96 at 1:18, The Flying Wrench typed diligantly: > I just purchased Eduard's Fokker E.III, the Udet edition. This is my first > Eduard and I have a few questions concerning their kit(s). > It's a nice kit, perhaps a little heavy on the moulding, but nice. > It appears that this was once an all plastic kit with the metal engine and > photoetched parts added later on, is this the case? I noted that the Sopwith > Baby I looked at awhile back was all plastic. Are metal components standard > for Eduard kits or are they primarly plastic with a few examples upgraded to > the metal details? Also the moulding looks identical to the Baby's. Is this > the norm for these kits > Are any idiosyncracies in this kit that I need to know about before starting > construction? > How does one go about reproducing the mottled cowling pattern found on the > the E.I. SInce the E.III was Eduard's first foray into 1/48th, it has a few minuses. If memory serves, the biggest problem is that you have to sand down the cockpit sides to get the photoetch to fit. You're best bet is to track down the Military Miniatures Preview where they go through all this trouble for you. Sure, they're not an entire WW1 bunch, but they do provide some great tips. The plastic is what I would definitely call typical *early* Eduard. >From what I've heard, their latest batch of kits have better plastic/better molding. Metal was added later. However, photoetch is the norm. The Baby also has photoetch - look again ;-). I too would be happy to hear how to best represent the "sworled" cowl. However, do check out the article by Harry Woodman on the Eduard HB Starstrutter. If memory serves, he explained one technique. Unfortunately, I don't have that copy of Windsock with me, so I can't provide details. FWIW, Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 07:02:01 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <199602230703.HAA10155@cso.com> On 23 Feb 96 at 0:07, Bill Shatzer typed diligantly: > Indeed, I think the wrench speaks the truth on this 'un (despite his > fixation on silver/blue triplanes! ) Most Italian Nieuports > were aluminum and only rarely (perhaps never) was the 'white' Italian > tricolor on the undersurfaces of Italian aircraft actually white - > rather the 'white' area was left in the 'usual' undersurface color, > either aluminum (Nieuports and the Macchi license built copies) or > natural linen (just about everything else.) I would disagree with both of you on the Nie.11 being aluminum doped. Although I have no references in front of me, I don't recall *any* Nie.11's being aluminum (which is what the original poster was asking about, anyway). > A similar practice seems to have been used by Austria-Hungary > for the a/c with red/'white'/red undersurface markings. In most > cases, the 'white' areas were not actually white by rather left in > the natural fabric color. However, I would agree here, that white areas were actually left linen - unless you're talking cowls, or the sort. I know that some Caudron's had their cowls painted in the red/white/green, and actually had the white painted (gee, think of that! ;-)). I also remember at least one Nie.11 that also was done this way. FWIW, Matt -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Matthew Bittner WW1 Modeler, ecto subscriber meba@cso.com PowerBuilder developer; Omaha, Nebraska Disclaimer: opinions expressed by me are my responsibility only. "Ex-lovers make great speed bumps" - Bumper Sticker -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:48:17 -0700 From: "Randy J. Ray" To: wwi Subject: Re: Attention: All Eduard Fokker E.III constructors Message-ID: Jose Valenciano : > > Greetings fellow cultists, > > I was thinking of posting a few tips on making the Eduard Fokker E.III a > while back. With Mr. F. Wrench's inquiries on this very subject. I > decided that that time is now. So here goes: > > ... > > You might want to replace the etch wall structures though as some > consider it too flat. If you do, don't use plastic rod as these > structures weren't made of tube but of wood. Plastic strip would be better. I have to jump in here and say that I have seen the E.III being restored in San Diego, and I have several clear photos of the E.III framework (the Datafile is excellent, and Squadron's new book is a nice addendum). It is in fact a tubular construction. Randy -- ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ Randy J. Ray -- U S WEST Technologies IAD/CSS/DPDS Phone: (303)595-2869 Denver, CO rjray@uswest.com I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 11:55:56 EST From: Jeff Friedrichs 23-Feb-1996 1128 To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <9602231655.AA08834@us2rmc.zko.dec.com> Well, thanks for all of the great input! > >Sounds nic! Will we see it at Rhinebeck this year? > Perhaps, but I am not committing to it. It has taken me 10 years since the my wife gave it to me for Christmas (yes, she has made sure I know that! :-) I have been working on it steadily since last Rhinebeck, but I am not yet ready to cover. >What about the Antique Coverite? It has a yellow tinge to it. Might work. The color of Antique Coverite does not match the pictures I have. But the pictures are drawings, not actual pictures.. That is what is causing so much confusion. The book I have has the color a distinctive mustard color. Now to add to my problems, Rhinebeck has rebuilt their Nieuport-11 and is using a mustard color, which is actually pretty close. They did use pigment though. On the flip side, it is not being done in Italian colors, so the color may be right for some, but not necessarily mine :-( I need to talk to them some more.... >Are you going to post these numbers so they can go into the Web page? Would >be nice to have some additional ones. I hope to add formula for the French >colors for the 17 I hope to finish soon. > The colors are right out the Windsock (issue??). I will try to remember to bring them in next week. BTW - there is a picture of my Nieuport in my shop at http://www.mainstream.net/~jeff/images/nport1.jpg and nport2.jpg. >red/WHITE/green? Are you sure? What I know of is that for the underside >of the wings they left the white portion unpainted (fabric color). Well, again, the plate that I have shows it as white. The cowling is also this tricolor scheme. I will try to verify it though. Thanks. The author of the book that I am basing this on works at the AerMacchi factory, and has access to factory drawings. I guess I have to assume that his color scheme was as accurate as I can get. On the flip side, in a private letter to me, he stated that he felt that the mustard color was the result of "doped linen", which is consistent with what a lot of you have said. Again though, the question comes to which color do I want and how do I obtain it. I am planning on using super coverite, which is available in the antique color (which is a light brown) or white. Yes, lots of N.17 used the silver doped base, as did some N.11. The one that I am modeling is clearly not silver though, according to the author. Cheers! J. Jeffery Friedrichs Ask me about Young Eagles!! friedrichs@vmsspt.enet.dec.com Sundowner N24005, Luscombe NC71599 ASMEL-IA http://www.mainstream.com/~jeff Nashua, NH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:34:22 -0800 From: bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <199602231734.AA22539@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Matthew Bittner wrote > >On 23 Feb 96 at 0:07, Bill Shatzer typed diligantly: > -snip- >> Most Italian Nieuports >> were aluminum and only rarely (perhaps never) was the 'white' Italian >> tricolor on the undersurfaces of Italian aircraft actually white - >> rather the 'white' area was left in the 'usual' undersurface color, >> either aluminum (Nieuports and the Macchi license built copies) or >> natural linen (just about everything else.) > >I would disagree with both of you on the Nie.11 being aluminum doped. >Although I have no references in front of me, I don't recall *any* >Nie.11's being aluminum (which is what the original poster was asking >about, anyway). > Alas, I fear you're correct and my wet-ware computer slipped a cog - I was, of course, thinking of the Nieuport 17's. >> A similar practice seems to have been used by Austria-Hungary >> for the a/c with red/'white'/red undersurface markings. In most >> cases, the 'white' areas were not actually white but rather left in >> the natural fabric color. > >However, I would agree here, that white areas were actually left >linen - unless you're talking cowls, or the sort. I know that some >Caudron's had their cowls painted in the red/white/green, and >actually had the white painted (gee, think of that! ;-)). I also >remember at least one Nie.11 that also was done this way. Phew! Got one right, anyway! :-) In profound embarassment, Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "The only duty we owe to history is to rewrite it." -Oscar Wilde- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:40:47 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Attention: All Eduard Fokker E.III constructors Message-ID: <199602231840.JAA25296@anchor> >I have to jump in here and say that I have seen the E.III being restored in >San Diego, and I have several clear photos of the E.III framework (the Datafile >is excellent, and Squadron's new book is a nice addendum). It is in fact a >tubular construction. The Wrench agrees: My sources indicate that the welded tubular frame construction was a Fokker hallmark. All of Tony Fokker's desgins employed the welded tubular frame construction, even the early "Spins" employed steel tubular structures in their frames. What was odd (or perhaps not so odd in light of the metals and welding technology of the day) was that the German government aviation officials did not trust the welded frame design and so mandated cable or wire reinforcement be used on such designs, the same way they mandated the interplane struts on the Dr.I but that's another discussion. This requirement resulted in the classic "X" wire reinforcement found on both wood and welded steel tube designs of the day. To accomplish this, steel tabs were welded to the frame and turnbuckled wires were attached to the tabs and then tightened. While wood frames definitely need such reinforcment rigging to ensure strength and rigidity, there is now some doubt as to the necessity of employing such rigging on WWI steel tube frames. I don't know when such reinforcment rigging was dropped from steel tube frames but it was sometimes after WWI, as all late Fokkers D.VII and such, still employed the frame rigging and before 1941 as my T-Cart has no such rigging on its welded tubular frame. Thanks one and all for your input to my modeling questions. The Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:40:51 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: "real" color of doped linen - how to match?? Message-ID: <199602231840.JAA25299@anchor> >I would disagree with both of you on the Nie.11 being aluminum doped. >Although I have no references in front of me, I don't recall *any* >Nie.11's being aluminum (which is what the original poster was asking >about, anyway). I hate it when this happens, I reread the post and find we're discussing the Nie.11 not the Nie.17. In this case I would have to agree with Bill, the early Nieuports were for the most part clear doped linen. The silver colouration was found primarly on the Nie. 17. but I'll post my thoughts on the matter anyway. (Dang it, got me again Bill) To address the Italian Nie.17 colouration debate. The aluminium pigmented dope was/is a mechanical, preventative measure, much like paint on a steel car. Without paint the steel body of a car would quickly rust. Likewise without the aluminum pigment, a clear doped fabric aircraft quickly loses the integrity of the fabric. I forget the exact figures now, but near as I can remember, the aluminium coat roughly doubles the life of the fabric. What many here probably do not realize is that the aluminium pigmented coat is standard on all fabric aircraft. Coats of aluminum pigmented dope are applied until no sunlight (yes sunlight) is visible through the fabric, then coloured dope is applied over it. So when you see a red, yellow, white, cream or any other coloured, fabric, aircraft, you can be assured that there are many, many, coats of aluminum dope undreneath the color coats. With that in mind and an understanding of the time and cost involved in recovering an aircraft, I find it difficult to imangine the various government aviation overseers of that era would stay with a clear, doped, fabric scheme for long. Aluminium pigmented dope coverings are far more cost effective especially when one considers the time and cost involved in adding aluminium pigment to the dope versus recovering an entire aircraft. Remember these design considerations were employed long before governments included factors such as planned obsolescences and had huge budgets created from 30 to 40 percent taxation of the public. In other words the standard thought process employed in planning was to build it well, build it to last. As opposed to the later WWII era, where towards the end of the war governments began to factor in considerations like:Just what is the combat life of an aircraft anyway? Do we really need to build it to last forever when statistically the aircraft will be destroyed within a month anyway? I also gave a detailed description of what an Italian book shows for this colour scheme on the Nie.17 which is aluminum pigmented dope. That's what the book showed as a (note "a" not "the") correct colour scheme. Thanks one and all for your input to my modeling questions. The Wrench ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 42 ********************