WWI Digest 34 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: DML aircraft going away... by The Flying Wrench 2) Re: Re[2]: Another theory on wing ey by The Flying Wrench 3) Roland D-VIb kits by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 4) Re: Roland DVIb kits by gspring@ix.netcom.com (Greg Springer ) 5) DML aircraft going away... by mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca (Mark K. Nelson) 6) Bouncing messages by thayer@sirius.com (Thayer Syme) 7) nasty piece of work by "Brian Bushe" 8) Re: Roland DVIb kits by "Matt Bittner" 9) FYI - Airfix 1996 Releases by taylor@dilbert.me.uiuc.edu (Russ Taylor) 10) Re: FYI - Airfix 1996 Releases by "Matt Bittner" 11) Re: DML aircraft going away... by stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu 12) Re: DML aircraft going away... by stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu 13) Re: DML aircraft going away... by "Matt Bittner" 14) Roland DVIb kits-follow up by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 15) DH-2 information by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 16) Re: DH-2 information by "Matt Bittner" 17) Re[4]: Another theory on wing ey by "STEVE HUSTAD" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:41:24 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: DML aircraft going away... Message-ID: <199602142141.MAA15191@anchor> The Wrench Ponders: I wonder if their (DML's) pricing structure has something to do with their leaving the aircraft business. What individual can really afford $25 to $30 for a miniatures kit? I was always somewhat astonished at the price of a large 1/32 scale Revell kit such as the P-47 or P-51 for ten to fifteen dollars. That same kit from Revell AG is twenty five to thirty dollars! I feel that the imports are really out of line for the money spent. The best example of this is seen in the $30 I spent for Revell's "Visible P-51". A great kit with an electric motor and lots of detail that I missed the first time around. Take that kit and put it next to a DML offering and look at the plastic for the money. I am not disputing the quality of DML's offerings, they are wonderful kits, I simply feel that such cost is way to much money for the plastic received. An analogy I have always used for this situation is stated with the question: which would you rather own, a Chevy dealership or a Rolls Royce dealership? The dollar volume of Chevy sales will almost always surpass the high dollar value of the Rolls sales. This can be restated as: would you rather sell 200 $20,000 cars or 5 $100,000 cars? The moral to this little test is that volume is important to sales and per unit cost is an important factor in to volume. Most imports I have seen fall into the Rolls Royce price catagory. Unfortunately these kits often do not fall into the Rolls Royce quality catagory. DML falls into both. Either way, how much sales volume does DML achieve at their high, per unit, cost? Now comes another question, most of us can afford either a Chevy or a Rolls, but which do we buy? Most of us buy a house and a Chevy instead of a Rolls. Therein lies the problem - although many can afford $25 for a kit, few of us can justify the expense. A manufacture must have the ability to sell to all potental buyers. As the dollar loses its value and jobs tighten up, such pricing eliminates all but the hardcore enthusiast. Folks like us. Unfortunately If we all bought twenty of each new release it would not justify the development and production cost of most kits. The casual buyer is eliminated with such pricing. But in the hard reality of sales, the casual buyers are just as important as the hardcore enthusiast. The hardcore enthusiast will never be able to support this industry. As our numbers are reduced through various types of attrition and the prices become increasingly difficult to justify, we can all expect a reduction in the offerings of our favorite subject matter. Could DML reduce its prices and still profit? Could Nike sneakers? You bet! Will they? I doubt it. But that's another discussion. The Flyin' Wrench Does any of this make any sense to anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 13:31:48 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Re[2]: Another theory on wing ey Message-ID: <199602142231.NAA16976@anchor> At 04:00 PM 2/14/96 -0500, stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu wrote: > > You can send a message to the administrator (where you > subscribed) and set it to ACK. This will bounce a > message back to you. The opposite -- which you > have -- is NOACK. Change it. ---AL: feel free to correct me > at any point in here!! I've had it changed and I recieve about one out of six returned to my address. I'm not sure what the problem is but I'm not going to pursue it too far, as I'm not horrendously concerned with seeing my messages returned. But thanks for the reply. > >While I'm cluttering up the server, does anyone know of a place I can find a >drawing / photo of a DH2 cockpit? I have a SMER 1/48 scale kit which may >turn into something some day (hopefully a DH2, I guess). > I hear that one can cobble up a nice Bf-109 from this kit. Take my 109 - please. But seriously folks I understand that this is one of the most undocumented aircraft of the period. It is my understanding that Sir Cole of Rinebeck actually had to draw-up a set of plans to reproduce the DH-2, as no original drawings exist. I have seen a datafile on this aircraft and I believe that squadron also produced a monograph on the DH-2. It is always a mystery to me how obscure aircraft like the Pfalz DXII, Voisin VIII, and Caproni CIII have survived and well known aircraft like the DH-2, Pfalz DIII, Fokker DR.1 have disappeared often without a trace. Recently I "discovered" the Roland LFG D VI and D VII these are very interesting aircraft that have received short shrift from historians. I have seen photographs of the D VI a number of times in the past, seemingly always the same photo, and assumed this was a one off prototype or some such example. Several weeks ago I picked up a 1977 copy of Airpower and found an entire section devoted to this aircraft! Turns out this was a production aircraft with at least 2000 examples produced. This put the Roland D VI-VII series way ahead of the Fokker Dr.1 in production numbers. Interestingly, it appears that a single example of the Roland D.VIb aircraft still exist in Poland - at least as of 1977, this is apparently the last example of any Roland in exsistance. Sure would like to see a kit of this aircraft with its clinker construction fuselage. Kind'a looks like a streamlined shed! The Wrench ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:10:48 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Roland D-VIb kits Message-ID: To continue a thread: >It is always a mystery to me how obscure aircraft like the Pfalz DXII, >Voisin VIII, and Caproni CIII have survived and well known aircraft like the >DH-2, Pfalz DIII, Fokker DR.1 have disappeared often without a trace. >Recently I "discovered" the Roland LFG D VI and D VII these are very >interesting aircraft that have received short shrift from historians. I have >seen photographs of the D VI a number of times in the past, seemingly >always the same photo, and assumed this was a one off prototype or some such >example. Several weeks ago I picked up a 1977 copy of Airpower and found an >entire section devoted to this aircraft! Turns out this was a production >aircraft with at least 2000 examples produced. This put the Roland D VI-VII >series way ahead of the Fokker Dr.1 in production numbers. Interestingly, it >appears that a single example of the Roland D.VIb aircraft still exist in >Poland - at least as of 1977, this is apparently the last example of any >Roland in exsistance. Sure would like to see a kit of this aircraft with its >clinker construction fuselage. Kind'a looks like a streamlined shed! To my knowledge only three kits have been produced of the Roland D-VIb, all in 1:72. Pegasus produced an injection kit a few years back, perhaps around 1990. Pretty basic with only contrail strut stock for making your own struts. Kit included a basic decal sheet with Balkan kreuze and there were a couple of metal bits as well. This kit was available from Pegasus as recently as about a year ago, but they are all sold out now. Big question: Did Pegasus use a Czech resin master for this kit ???? I've not seen a resin of this, has anyone on the list ?? A vac form kit was released by Rosemont hobbies (was this also a Formaplane release ??), perhaps the master was by Joe Chubbok (sp?) originator of the Formaplane line. I don't have one of these so I can't say much more about it. I believe it appeared shortly before the Pegasus kit. The third release was a cast white metal kit produced by C.A. 'Tommy' Atkins in England. This kit also appeared around 1990, perhaps the year before. Very nicely done from his own master. Each wing is a single piece casting and hence a little thick but they have subtle rib details. The fuselage is split longitudinally and the seam doesn't match the seams of the "clinker" in the fuselage sides. No decals were provided. The detail pieces such as wheels and prop are very nicely cast. Not many of these were made. The surviving Roland D-VIb still exists in Poland and the fuselage has recently been restored (no small feat given its condition). This restoration has been reported in World War One Aeroplanes in the last 18 months. I think the 2000 aircraft referred to above was actually a commemorative aircraft representing the 2000th aircraft built by the Roland firm at that point in the war. It just happened that the 2000th airframe was a D-VIb. If the German flying service had posessed 2000 Roland fighters they would have put a serious hurt on the RFC by sheer weight in numbers. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:29:57 -0800 From: gspring@ix.netcom.com (Greg Springer ) To: wwi Subject: Re: Roland DVIb kits Message-ID: <199602150129.RAA08555@ix10.ix.netcom.com> Hello all! Bob Norgren's Sierra Scale has a new DVIb in 1/48th listed. Some years back a member of the Austin club, Maj. Tim Swisher built one by converting an Aurora Albatros (I think. It may have been scratch-built) and covering the fuselage in model ship planking. Most impressive! Cheers! Greg 'Ain't nobody gwine haf' ta be slaves all de time no more! We's gwine take toins. And guess who's toin it is now?! KEE-RACK!!' FST - Everthing You Know Is Wrong ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:21:59 -0700 From: mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca (Mark K. Nelson) To: wwi Subject: DML aircraft going away... Message-ID: >>On 10 Feb 96 at 16:57, Mark K. Nelson typed diligently: >> >>> To (partially) dispell a nasty rumor circulated a few weeks back. . . >>> >>> A 2-page document entitled 'Dragon 1996 Line Up' which I pulled >>> out of a box of models at work on thursday lists kit number 5910 >>> Sopwith Camel with the date T.B.A. The list came from Mikerian, the Canadian 'Branch' of Marco Polo, etc. . . Admittedly not the most reliable of companies. > >On the other hand, Jennings Heilig has just posted to rec.models.scale that >DML is 'permanently out of the airplane business'. He usually has good poop >on things oriental :-( Asian. > > There was another poster who investigated further and said > that *IS* the case. He said that airplane sales are really > hurtin'. Like I posted to rms, time to scarf up all the WWI > stuff before it goes away. I could care less about the > Luftwaffe almost-operational stuff. I started the He219 but > crashed and burned. I may have to try again; that's an > interesting kit. Too bad that DML can't weather the > storm. Also too bad that they don't ask the people who know > what kits to produce before they start a line. (too much to > ask) I wonder if they would hire me as a consultant..... > > ---Stephen Tontoni In hindsight (as someone who trys to sell the stuff (permanent discount too.)) DML wouldn't have released any of their product, with the exception of the 1:144 line. The vast majority of their kits sell (relatively) well for a week or two when new, and then blotto, zip, zero. . . AMT/Revellogram models turn over in a month (or faster), DML & Hasegawa take years. . . if ever. _____________________________________________________________________ Mark (An Employee at Kites & Other Delights in West Edmonton Mall) ------------------------ mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:57:14 -0800 From: thayer@sirius.com (Thayer Syme) To: wwi Subject: Bouncing messages Message-ID: Folks, I have to apologize. I recently unsubscribed from the mailing list at my work email account and resubscribed to the list from my personal account. Unfortunately, I continue to get messages at work that are being forwarded to me. This is causing a lot of messages to be bounced back to the senders without any ability on my part to prevent this. Hopefully, I will stop getting messages at work very soon and this will go away. Another solution would be for the Allan to remove me from the list. The offending email address is "thayer_syme@skellington.com. Again, I appologize to all those bothered. Sincerely, Thayer Syme San Francisco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:18:06 +0000 From: "Brian Bushe" To: wwi, BURGESS , Subject: nasty piece of work Message-ID: <199602150924.EAA05564@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Hi, i have given my company a months notice. they seem determined to make me work it. however the have diverted my mail to another mail box (without informing me I might add). Any mail sent to me since Friday 9th would not have reached me. Please do not email me at brian.bushe@harrier.com. you can still contact me at harrier on 01734 328 282 or at home on 01734 732 295. i will be on air in a month or so. thanks Brian Bushe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:28:08 -0600 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Roland DVIb kits Message-ID: <199602150729.HAA09386@cso.com> On 14 Feb 96 at 20:29, Greg Springer typed diligently: > Bob Norgren's Sierra Scale has a new DVIb in 1/48th listed. Some years > back a member of the Austin club, Maj. Tim Swisher built one by > converting an Aurora Albatros (I think. It may have been > scratch-built) and covering the fuselage in model ship planking. > Most impressive! And for those into 1/72nd, Pegasus did one, that you might still be able to find through Pegasus. It's one of their better "older" releases, which came out right before the SSW D.III. If memory serves, the outline is pretty accurate. The best part is the fuselage. With the right amount of wash/dry brushing, it can look quite good. Matt -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Matthew Bittner WW1 Modeler, ecto subscriber, semi-new dad, meba@cso.com PowerBuilder developer; Omaha, Nebraska Disclaimer: opinions expressed by me are my responsibility only. "You cannot make anything foolproof, because the fools are so ingenious." - Christian Walters -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 1996 16:30:10 GMT From: taylor@dilbert.me.uiuc.edu (Russ Taylor) Subject: FYI - Airfix 1996 Releases Message-ID: <4fd8ei$hp2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> On the back cover of the Jan issue of Scale Aircraft Modelling is an ad from IW Models, Luton UK who are taking reservations for the 1996 releases and rereleases from Airfix: New 1:48 Spitfire F. 22/24 1:48 Seafire FR. 46/47 (no surprise on these two) Reissue 1:72 BAe Hawk T Mk1 1:72 Westland Sea KIng 1:72 Vought Kingfisher 1:72 Fairey Rotodyne 1:72 Bristol Superfreighter 1:72 Chipmunk 1:24 Fw190A/F 1:24 Ju87B/R Stuka 1:76 Sheridan Tank 1:76 WWI Tank Waterloo Farmhouse 1:600 HMS Iron Duke 1:600 HMS Warspite Looks like a good year for reissues. I know there's some of my faves in here :-) Russell D. Taylor, Ph.D. Post-Doctoral Researcher, BLAST Support Office, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:27:41 -0600 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: FYI - Airfix 1996 Releases Message-ID: <199602150928.JAA12167@cso.com> On 15 Feb 96 at 10:14, Russ Taylor typed diligently: > 1:76 WWI Tank YES!!! (Now if we could only get Airfix to reissue the Handley Page O-400!!!) Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 07:42:26 PST From: stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu To: wwi Subject: Re: DML aircraft going away... Message-ID: <9601158243.AA824398997@SCCCGATE.seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu> Regarding all this mess with DML, there was a poster or (he may have sent it to me directly... don't ask me to be coherent right now) ANYWAY, he said that DML still plans to release the Camel. He said that they are dropping most of their aircraft line. Either that or they think that the Camel is a car. Admittedly these people are misdirected and confused. (he heaps on the abuse with a coal shovel) True? Who knows. Could be wishful thinking. Reminds me of when I lived/worked in a dorm and one *cold winter* they decided to fix the heating system. They decided to shut down the steam on one side of the building so that it would still be somewhat warm. When they completed that, they would turn the steam back on, then turn off the other side, etc... you get the picture. What actually happened, OF COURSE WHY DIDN'T THEY @#^@#%^#@^% ASK ME, as soon as they shut down the one side, all pressure was lost in the entire building. Interesting to wake up in the morning and see your breath. Even more interesting to take #@*$#*&$#& cold showers. We actually encouraged students to sleep together for awhile there. (like they needed any encouragement) Point? If DML shuts down its aircraft, I doubt very much that they will release a new one. They are a flaky bunch though; who knows. Thanks for reading this far. I know this is a long rambling one. I promise that my next will be short and sweet. ---Stephen Tontoni ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 07:50:51 PST From: stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu To: wwi Subject: Re: DML aircraft going away... Message-ID: <9601158243.AA824399536@SCCCGATE.seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu> In hindsight (as someone who trys to sell the stuff (permanent discount too.)) DML wouldn't have released any of their product, with the exception of the 1:144 line. The vast majority of their kits sell (relatively) well for a week or two when new, and then blotto, zip, zero. . . AMT/Revellogram models turn over in a month (or faster), DML & Hasegawa take years. . . if ever. Interesting; true though for me. Once I bought all the DML that I was likely to build or even fondle, I stopped even looking at those kits. And I'm someone who buys new stuff almost every week, even when the new stuff is an old Airfix Hs123 and Hawker Demon. (I also picked up an SBC4 Helldiver at a meeting). I'm always looking for cool stuff, but DML hasn't released something to catch my eye for some time. Last was the Wildcat; one glance at it and I could tell it was a Hasegawa knock-off. Plus it had zilch PE details, and I know for a fact that even though it was once a Hasegawa kit, it won't fit nearly as well. I'm the obnoxious guy who says "I want to see the kit"... then I say "Hmmm; no thanks after all....." --Stephen Tontoni ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:11:43 -0600 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: DML aircraft going away... Message-ID: <199602151013.KAA12896@cso.com> On 15 Feb 96 at 11:01, stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu typed diligently: > Last was the Wildcat; one glance at it and I could tell it > was a Hasegawa knock-off. Plus it had zilch PE details, and > I know for a fact that even though it was once a Hasegawa > kit, it won't fit nearly as well. Actually, our own ("our" being this list, and Omaha) Ken Hagerup reviewed this for our local newsletter. It's not bad, the only DML being the wing replacements. (Ken, you want to add anything here?) Since I'm a (shhh....very quiet now) Wildcat fan, I'll definitely be looking for one of these. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:56:20 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Roland DVIb kits-follow up Message-ID: Greetings all, To follow up on my post from yesterday re: the Roland D-VIb, I consulted my copy of Datafile #37 from 1993, this is still available from Albatros for 5.90 pounds plus shipping and bank charges. It appears that there were TWO commemorative airframes for the Roland firm which just happened to be Roland D-VIs, on p.2 of the Datafile is a photo of the D-VI prototype which was the 1000 aircraft that Roland built. On page 26 is a photo of the 2000 Roland built, a standard production D-VIb. The Datafile lists that a total of 350 Roland D-VIs were ordered in addition to 3 prototypes. Regarding D-VI kits, the following are listed in the Datafile: 1984 Kramer (male) vac form 1:72 1986 Czech resin kit 1:72 1986 Formaplane vac form 1:72 1987 Atkins metal kit 1:72 1988 Pegasus injection kit 1:72 Two other kits were listed as announced but I've never seen either: Tom's Modelworks 1:48 vac form Classic Plane 1:72 vac form As mentioned in an earlier post, there is the Sierra 1:48 vac form of this a/c, it is kit #48-29 and sells for $19.95. I don't have one so I am unsure what injection or metal parts might be included here. With history being our guide, I would suspect that the Pegasus kit has its origins from the Czech resin. As recently as 12 months or so ago, Pegasus listed the D-VI as in stock, but I think these are all gone from there now. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:03:41 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: DH-2 information Message-ID: Greetings all, To follow up from posts from yesterday, here are some references for DH-2 information, in addition to Albatros Datafile #48. World War One Aeroplanes #146, November 1994, cockpit views and drawings from the DH-2 parts catalog, mostly showing parts used for the nacelle. Cross & Cockade International issues Vol. 20 #1, #3 1989 Vol. 21 #3 1990 Vol. 22 #1, #4 1991 These issues are installments of material from the DH-2 research group and include photos, and scale drawings, the drawings may be the same as found in the Datafile (DH-2 group wrote the Datafile as well). Additional installments from this group may appear in future C&C issues, supposedly they planned a total of 12(!!) installments. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:02:32 -0600 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: DH-2 information Message-ID: <199602151203.MAA14811@cso.com> Might as well add what my DB comes up with: Aircraft Archive, Vol.2 - Includes a cockpit, "structural" drawing. Scale Models, Jun 1972 - The main article deals with correcting the Merit kit. If memory serves, it has some cockpit sketches. Windsock, Vol.1 No.1 - Another article about Merit's kit, and some cockpit photo's. HTH! Matt -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Matthew Bittner WW1 Modeler, ecto subscriber, semi-new dad, meba@cso.com PowerBuilder developer; Omaha, Nebraska Disclaimer: opinions expressed by me are my responsibility only. "You cannot make anything foolproof, because the fools are so ingenious." - Christian Walters -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 1996 12:56:12 GMT From: "STEVE HUSTAD" To: wwi Subject: Re[4]: Another theory on wing ey Message-ID: The Wrench writes: Recently I "discovered" the Roland LFG D VI and D VII these are very interesting aircraft that have received short shrift from historians. I have seen photographs of the D VI a number of times in the past, seemingly always the same photo, and assumed this was a one off prototype or some such example. Several weeks ago I picked up a 1977 copy of Airpower and found an entire section devoted to this aircraft! Turns out this was a production aircraft with at least 2000 examples produced. This put the Roland D VI-VII series way ahead of the Fokker Dr.1 in production numbers. Interestingly, it appears that a single example of the Roland D.VIb aircraft still exist in Poland - at least as of 1977, this is apparently the last example of any Roland in exsistance. Sure would like to see a kit of this aircraft with its clinker construction fuselage. Kind'a looks like a streamlined shed! Generally speaking the Wrench is right about lesser known types often being better documented than the more obscure and/or less numerous types. *But!*, the well known Roland D.VI photo he's refering to that shows the "2000th" wreath on the D.VI refers to the 2000th plane built by Roland (I believe?), and *NOT* the 2000th D.VI nicht wahr?. Steve H. ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 34 ********************