WWI Digest 290 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Off-Topic Web Page by "Shelley Goodwin" 2) Friday, 13 October 1916, Cazaux by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 3) Re: Scholar's Bookshelf phone number? by Bill Bacon 4) Find or Folly? by bciciora@wwa.com 5) Halberstadt IV Question by "S.M. Head" 6) Annual Obs on the state of the hobby by Shane Weier 7) Re: Find or Folly? by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 8) Re: Halberstadt IV Question by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 9) Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. by Alberto Rada 10) Re: Fokker D.VIII (part 2) by NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) 11) Re: Re[2]: Lewis Guns/Sorta Off Topic by Mick Fauchon 12) Re: Re[2]: Lewis Guns/Sorta Off Topic by Mick Fauchon 13) Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 14) Re: Jasta 14 & 19 squadron markings by "Stuart L. Malone" 15) Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. by "S.M. Head" 16) Re: Jasta 14 & 19 squadron markings by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 23:58:21 PST From: "Shelley Goodwin" To: wwi Subject: Off-Topic Web Page Message-ID: <9609128451.AA845189890@mx.Ricochet.net> Submitted for Your Approval- Come and read some weird war tales about WWI knights of the air who find themselves in mortal combat with the Reds in a time when the Cold War was still hot. Explore the lost years and lost causes of the worst reported conflict of modern times: the Russian Civil War. Also take in our second feature about a gallant but unfortunate American caught up in Spain's time of troubles. "We've been some weeks in preparation; a splendid time is gauranteed for all." Riordan Goodwin's "WINGS OF REVOLUTION" http://www.serve.com/rgoodwin Welcome. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 09:24:12 -0700 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Friday, 13 October 1916, Cazaux Message-ID: <326117AC.4A39@host.dmsc.net> Good day. Weather still keeps warm and fine these days. Little work in a.m. & same in latter part of p.m. Did a lot of writing up notes for Major Parker all day. Note from Helen Harper with a small picture of her taken last spring. Not a bad looking young lady, but looks older than she is. Letter from Mr Grundy saying he cabled to Uncle Clair for the $30 for me on Wednesday. Hope money comes soon. ****************** from the diaries of E.C.C. Genet, Escadrille Lafayette ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 11:03:04 -0500 From: Bill Bacon To: wwi Subject: Re: Scholar's Bookshelf phone number? Message-ID: <326112B8.554C@netjava.net> Bradley, The Scholar's Bookshelf 1-800-817-9993 Bill Bill Bacon wbacon@netjava.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 13:46 CDT From: bciciora@wwa.com To: wwi Subject: Find or Folly? Message-ID: I was browsing my local hobby shop today, and came upon an old kit being sold on consignment. It's an Aurora Albatros(s) D-3, kit 104-100. It's molded in red and black, so it's not the original 1956 issue. The box has a ZIP code on the address, so it must be from the sixties. I paid $15 for it, so it's not a big deal if the thing is no rarity. Hell, for an extra $5 it's worth it not to have to sand the poor fit that the Glencoe D.III puts you through; I'll just build it. Anyone have any idea if I found a gem or got stung? Bill C. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 17:25:27 -0400 From: "S.M. Head" To: wwi Subject: Halberstadt IV Question Message-ID: <9610131646.aa23260@mail.iapc.net> Just back from Austin where I met Tom (I'm horrible with names Tom, I forgot your last name) and saw his beautiful 1/28 Fokker Triplane. It's nice to finally be able to put a face with the group! Anyway, I picked up the Halb CL.IV Datafile, but have a question that is still left unanswered. Is there a bulkhead aft of the gunner/observer's position barring view into the fuselage? Also, did the gunner/observer have a standard seat or some sort of fold up job to allow for better movement. And finally, what kind of flooring was used in the rear? I'm currently building the Tom's Modelworks 1/48 offering and have a 1/72 in the wings. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks all! Scott M. Head IPMS/USA #32841 IPMS Houston Scale Model Forum http://web-hou.iapc.net/~smh Win95=Mac'87 ;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:34:53 +1100 From: Shane Weier To: "'wwi'" Subject: Annual Obs on the state of the hobby Message-ID: <01BBB9B2.F5B7C7C0@pc087b.mim.com.au> Hello all, Here I am absolutely exhausted, stony broke and worst of all at work, after the 1996 Queensland Model Expo. Those of you on the list at the time I wrote about last years event may recall that I was sadly dissappointed about the lack of WW1 models on the display tables, and even more so about the competition tables. I have to report that there has been a 150% increase in the numbers of WW1 related competition models this year. Sadly, thats no great cause for celebration, since the rise was from a miserly 2 entries to an unimpressive 5 entries. Aircraft classes were down in numbers despite an overall rise. Just ONE WW1 aircraft, a SPAD XIII C.I Early which at least won the Aircraft Large Scale (they mean 1:48 and larger) Modified/Scratchbuilt class. Oh well. At least the armour guys turned out three Mk.I tanks, two of those in dioramas and a nice Western Front Aussie digger figure. MUCH better news on the vendors tables. I saw for the first time a range of metal figures in 54mm (1/32nd) scale which are made here in Australia, and include five or six WW1 figures, including an AFC pilot. I bought a couple, and once I see if I can remember how to paint figures after a layoff of several years I'll post a review of sorts. Also had the opportunity to harangue the sculptor himself, since his stand adjoined our club display, and extracted a promise of sorts to produce some figures in 1:48. He'll probably forget !! So, I'm afraid that the faith will have to be kept by the like of our listmembers for a little longer. Come the revolution.... Shane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:46:52 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Find or Folly? Message-ID: <199610132346.AA17004@ednet1.orednet.org> Bill C. wrote: > >I was browsing my local hobby shop today, and came upon an old kit being sold on consignment. >It's an Aurora Albatros(s) D-3, kit 104-100. It's molded in red and black, so it's not the >original 1956 issue. The box has a ZIP code on the address, so it must be from the sixties. You got yourself the edition of this kit which was produced between 1967 and 1973 >I paid $15 for it, so it's not a big deal if the thing is no rarity. Hell, for an extra $5 >it's worth it not to have to sand the poor fit that the Glencoe D.III puts you through; I'll >just build it. Anyone have any idea if I found a gem or got stung? A moderate find - John Burns "Value Guide" puts a $12-$17 value on this kit so what you paid was pretty much in the "reasonable price" ball park. But, of course, as a "builder", the essentially identical SMER kit is available for half that price. If you're gonna build, better to get a SMER kit and sell the Aurora to a collector type, assuming you're not a collector type yourself. Cheers, -- -Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org- "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:54:37 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Halberstadt IV Question Message-ID: <199610132354.AA20036@ednet1.orednet.org> Scott M. Head writes: >Anyway, I picked up the Halb CL.IV Datafile, but have a question that is >still left unanswered. Is there a bulkhead aft of the gunner/observer's >position barring view into the fuselage? Also, did the gunner/observer have >a standard seat or some sort of fold up job to allow for better movement. >And finally, what kind of flooring was used in the rear? Why don't you write the USAF Museum and ask 'em? They do have one and I understand they are pretty good about responding. As a guess though, I'd opine as how the gunner probably had a little circular stool arrangement mounted on a bearing which allowed the whole thing to rotate. That seems to have been the standard arrangement for the gunners on German two-seaters. Cheers, -- -Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org- "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:30:16 -0400 (AST) From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. Message-ID: <199610140030.UAA29771@fw.true.net> >Bob typed: >> >>First of all let me thank the members of this list for teaching me more >>about WWI aircraft models and modelling in about 2 months than I learned in >>years of "do-it-yourself" experience. I never hope to approach the perfect >>miniatures some of you make that, if enlarged, I'm sure could be flown. >>Still I am doing a credible job that pleases me and impresses my family. >>It's been a great experience. Both Scott and Bill have given a very detailed and accurate description on the lozegne question, and Scott article really completes the issue, but I would like to ask : How do you complete the job, that is, once the lozegne is applied, in some areas you have to place on top some other decals, as the Eiserne Kreuze etc. Questions: Between the Lozegne and the other decals, do you apply a coat of gloss varnish ? On top of it all do you apply a coat of Semi-gloss or flat varnish ? Thanks a lot Saludos Alberto ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 96 From: NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) To: joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph, wwi Subject: Re: Fokker D.VIII (part 2) Message-ID: <199610140126.VAA14166@mime2.prodigy.com> -- [ From: Kenneth Hagerup * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] -- Jose wrote, > > E. E.V 156/18, Marine Jasta 2, Lt Theo Ostercamp. Fuselage divided > > into 7 black and 6 yellow bands, including cowl. lozenge covered > > horizontal stab and landing gear airfoil. Dark green wings and struts. > > Yellow wheel covers. White rudder, lozenge covered forward fin. VERY > > striking, but I've never seen any references to this scheme. > > Are the the bands all of uniform width? Yes, equally divided into 13 bands. > Do you have the Fok.D7 Datafile? There's a photo there of a plane with someone > standing in front of it who looks just like Theo. Unfortunately, no. > The plane's got alternating light and dark (Black and Yellow?) diagonal stripes > along the fuselage sides. The D.VIII (E.V, actually) has bands which go around the fuselage, perpendicular to the fuselage. Still hoping to run across a photo of this plane. It's a dramatic change from the typical lozenge covered E.V - D.VIII. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:01:51 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Re[2]: Lewis Guns/Sorta Off Topic Message-ID: Bill, > demise at the hands of the local Spartakus Bund as "Harburg", not > "Hamburg". Is that a misprint on their part? I can't find any "Harburg" > in my atlas so I'm guessing it's a misprint. But can anybody else confirm > Mick's information that "Hamburg" is correct? You can't find Harburg? What kind of an atlas have you got, man? 80) If you head out of Hamburg in the direction of Buxtehude, Stade, Cuxhaven, you *have* to go through Harburg. It's actually Hamburg-Harburg, as the sign on the station says. > > [No, I'm not doubting you Mick, just asking for a second opinion. :-) ] > I knew that 80) .......now you've got a second opinion. Tsch"u3, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:09:09 +1000 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Re[2]: Lewis Guns/Sorta Off Topic Message-ID: Bill, > > Harburg is a part of the city of Hamburg, I think it lies south of the > center, there is a railway station named Hamburg-Harburg. See, Dietmar knows......and he's from K"oln 80) Yes, it's about 15 Km south of the city. Cheers, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:14:55 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. Message-ID: <199610140214.AA06419@ednet1.orednet.org> Alberto wrote: >Both Scott and Bill have given a very detailed and accurate description on the >lozegne question, and Scott article really completes the issue, but I would like >to ask : How do you complete the job, that is, once the lozegne is applied, in >some areas you have to place on top some other decals, as the Eiserne Kreuze >etc. >Questions: >Between the Lozegne and the other decals, do you apply a coat of gloss varnish ? >On top of it all do you apply a coat of Semi-gloss or flat varnish ? I don't use any intermediate coat between the lozenge decals and the Eiserne Kreuze, etc. I just make sure the lozenge decals are throughly dry and set up (like overnight) and then stick the crosses, etc on directly on them. The decal setting solutions don't seem to have any effect on the lozenge decals after they are throughly dried and snugged down. And yes, when the whole thing is done and assembled, I shoot the entire model with an overcoat - I use one part gloss to two parts flat which gives something a little flatter than semi-gloss and a little shinier than matte. Probably something glossier would be more prototypical but my mixture looks "right" on the models to me. Cheers, -- -Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org- "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 21:26:19 -0500 From: "Stuart L. Malone" To: wwi Subject: Re: Jasta 14 & 19 squadron markings Message-ID: <3261A4CB.6F7F@sound.net> Bill Shatzer wrote: And, if you've a copy of the old > Squadron Signal "In Action" book on the triplane, take a look at the > top of page 24 - while the "In Action" book identifies this line-up > of nine or so triplanes as Jasta 11, Imrie sez its Jasta 19 and I'm > pretty sure he's right. Yes, I have this one, but wouldn't trust any of the captions ;) > Jasta 19 seems to be yellow tail surfaces with black stripes and some, > though not all, seem to have a light colored cowling. Imrie says the > cowling, however, was _white_ not yellow. Looking at the photos, I > don't see any evidence that Jasta 14 tails had anything except normal > streaked olive although I suppose anything is possible. Were the stripes running perpendicular to the fuselage or parallel? Any idea how wide the stripes were? >Imrie, however, > gives the markings for Jasta 14 as _only_ a "horizontal black and white > stripe on fuselage side on the thrust line from the rear of the engine > cowling to sternpost." No mention of any unit colors on the tail surfaces > and the photos which show the tail surfaces display no hint of any > over painting with unit colors. Again, any idea how wide of a stripe, and which color was above the other? > >Currently, one sits prepped in green brushed over blue, the other, all > >blue, no green applied (yet). So these babies are ready to roll into > >the paintbooth..... > > Whoops! I think the current consensus is that for _all_ triplanes except > the first three F.1's and, perhaps the first 20 Dr.I's, the standard > Dr.I scheme was turquoise undersides with the upper surfaces streaked > olive over _natural fabric_. Green brushed over blue would be > incorrect for at least 280 of the 300 Dr.I's built including all > the tripes that served with Jastas 14 and 19. > > 'Course this is only the current consensus and subject to change upon > discovery of persuasive evidence to the contrary. Yet the streaked > olive over natural fabric seems the best supposition based on > current evidence. RAF captured aircraft reports and the few surviving > fabric samples seem to rather uniformly support this view. Well, so I'm not perfect, I guess I'm a few years behind the "current consensus". IMNSHO, they look pretty cool with the olive drybrushed over the light blue.......... > > Why those two Jastas? Hardly the two most distinguished Jastas > operating the Fokker tripe. Well, I use these two Jastas in 1/72 miniature gaming. Besides, how many Jasta 2, Jasta 6, or Jasta 11 (just to name a few) triplanes does one have to build? I would like to do some of the more obscure units, but unfortunately my references (and resources to collect more) are inadequate. Therefore, I am forced to rely on the fine chaps in this group for some explicit details on these two units. Stuart L. Malone ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:10:48 -0400 From: "S.M. Head" To: wwi Subject: Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. Message-ID: <9610132231.aa25954@mail.iapc.net> >Both Scott and Bill have given a very detailed and accurate description on >the >lozegne question, and Scott article really completes the issue, but I would >like >to ask : How do you complete the job, that is, once the lozegne is applied, in >some areas you have to place on top some other decals, as the Eiserne Kreuze >etc. >Questions: >Between the Lozegne and the other decals, do you apply a coat of gloss varnish >? >On top of it all do you apply a coat of Semi-gloss or flat varnish ? > >Thanks a lot > >Saludos > >Alberto Alberto, I've found that you don't need to put any kind of clearcoat over the finished lozenge before applying insignia, though for safety I do anyway. Every once in a while a strong setting solution may damage the dry decal below. The only problem I've encountered is having the whites of the cross too transparent, requiring an accurately placed mask and a shot of white paint over the lozenge. For this, definitely clearcoat your decals to toughen them up for masking, let the clearcoat dry for a LONG time, and use extremely low tack masking material (post-it notes are good). Another option is white decal material (easier) or a well trained brush after the fact. Cheers! Scott M. Head IPMS/USA #32841 IPMS Houston Scale Model Forum http://web-hou.iapc.net/~smh Win95=Mac'87 ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 21:24:10 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Jasta 14 & 19 squadron markings Message-ID: <199610140424.AA06939@ednet1.orednet.org> Stuart L. Malone wrote: >Bill Shatzer wrote: -snips- >> Jasta 19 seems to be yellow tail surfaces with black stripes and some, >> though not all, seem to have a light colored cowling. Imrie says the >> cowling, however, was _white_ not yellow. Looking at the photos, I >> don't see any evidence that Jasta 14 tails had anything except normal >> streaked olive although I suppose anything is possible. > >Were the stripes running perpendicular to the fuselage or parallel? On Jasta 19 the black tail striped were roughly parallel to the fuselage longerons - that is they were not parallel to the line of flight but rather angled out to the front, at roughly the same angle as the inward curving rear fuselage longerons. >Any idea how wide the stripes were? A single large black stripe on both the left and right horizontal tail surfaces. The references don't give any dimensions but they seem to scale out at about 14 inches - maybe 350 mm in metric terms assuming they would have been some round number in metric measurements? Something in that ballpark wouldn't be too far off in any case. >>Imrie, however, >> gives the markings for Jasta 14 as _only_ a "horizontal black and white >> stripe on fuselage side on the thrust line from the rear of the engine >> cowling to sternpost." No mention of any unit colors on the tail surfaces >> and the photos which show the tail surfaces display no hint of any >> over painting with unit colors. >Again, any idea how wide of a stripe, and which color was above the >other? Two equal width stripes, white uppermost. Again, no references on width and a little tougher to scale out but it looks like the total width of the two stripes is somewheres around 8" or 9". Cheers, -- -Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org- "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 290 *********************