WWI Digest 289 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Boche Balloon Buster--Guntermann by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 2) The name is gOntermann by "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" 3) Thursday, 12 October 1916, Cazaux by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 4) Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. by Robert Godfrey 5) Re: Fokker D.VIII (part 2) by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 6) Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. by mbittner@juno.com (Matthew E Bittner) 7) does this work? by Robert Godfrey 8) Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 9) Scholar's Bookshelf phone number? by "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" 10) Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. by "S.M. Head" 11) Jasta 14 & 19 squadron markings by "Stuart L. Malone" 12) Re: Jasta 14 & 19 squadron markings by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:47:47 -0700 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Re: Boche Balloon Buster--Guntermann Message-ID: <325FE7D3.1DF1@host.dmsc.net> PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791 wrote: > > There is more on Heinrich Gontermann in the Franks/Bailey/Guest > book _Above the Lines_ (still in print) -- including allof his victories. > Other balloon aces (e.g., Fritz Roth) are also noted: mini-bio and complete > list of air victories (of whichmany opponents are identified). Thanks for the tip, Peter. I've had my eye on this book for a while-- now I can feel justified in springing for it. --Bradley ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:36:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" To: wwi Subject: The name is gOntermann Message-ID: <961012123608.22a4545d@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> FYI, in response to Subj: Re: Boche Balloon Buster--Guntermann <> There is more on Heinrich Gontermann in the Franks/Bailey/Guest <> book _Above the Lines_ (still in print) -- including all of his victories. <> Other balloon aces (e.g., Fritz Roth) are also noted: mini-bio and complete <> list of air victories (of which many opponents are identified). To: wwi Subject: Thursday, 12 October 1916, Cazaux Message-ID: <3260015B.EC4@host.dmsc.net> Fine day. Work all day. Had flight in F.B.A. Hydroplane in a.m. and shot down 4 small ballons and only missed one shot. Very interesting. Wrote to Cousin Eleanor Cresson & Rivers. Went in swimming in lake in late p.m. with Bigelow. Water was fine. Magazine from Helen Harper. Am getting utterly distracted over no news from dear darling Gertrude. What is the matter with the dear girl? *********************** from the diaries of E.C.C. Genet, Escadrille Lafayette ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:51:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Godfrey To: wwi Subject: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. Message-ID: <199610121851.NAA11611@guitar.sound.net> Greetings group: First of all let me thank the members of this list for teaching me more about WWI aircraft models and modelling in about 2 months than I learned in years of "do-it-yourself" experience. I never hope to approach the perfect miniatures some of you make that, if enlarged, I'm sure could be flown. Still I am doing a credible job that pleases me and impresses my family. It's been a great experience. In the late '60s over a couple or so years, I built 15 1/72 kits all by Revell. I got all I could find, but there were probably more. I built them strictly from the "instructions" on the package insert and from the pictures on the box; the results left much to be desired. Two years ago I rebuilt and finished an old sailing ship model and that reminded me of my WWI aircraft which had been lovingly packed away all these years so I got them out after I finished the ship. They still looked pretty good to me and were in various states of completion and authenticity. I decided to "upgrade" some of them mainly by installing the rigging I had left off of several of them. I did my E III eindecker with some success and them my Hanover CL II. I've just finished the Nieuport 17 c right down to the elevator horns and control cables. Now I'm learning from you all how to use wire for the wires, and now even ceramic fiber that's almost as elastic as glass (i.e., if it is distorted, it returns to its original shape; in this case straight). Only problem there is it apparently has to be painted which would add a few thousandths to its thickness I should think. Anyway, I plan to go over several of those old models and do the rigging and other detail work I can find on my own or get from the all of you. My question now is about painting. All my old models were done by hand with a brush using the original formula Testor's enamels (although near the end they came out with flat finish paints). I got and used a cheapo Badger airbrush later on model cars, but not much. Does anyone do camouflage and/or lozenges with an airbrush? If so, how? They aren't easy to do with a brush, especially lozenges! From what I've seen on the list, it looks like there are almost unlimited decals (e.g., Americal/Gryphon) for almost anything you might want to put on an airplane. If that's how most of you do it, how do you get decals to lie down smoothly over irregular surfaces and compound curves? Their proper use must be an art form. I bought 6 new kits to try my hand again from the molded "trees" of parts right out of the box. I got Airfix kits (I can almost hear the snorts and groans, but they were on sale). As you all know too well, they really don't give much detail on construction and none at all except the picture on the box on rigging. Their decals are sparse too. Revell was better on those, as I recall, but that was a long time ago. I plan to use an airbrush (? mine) for painting this time, but I know I'm not going to be able to get too fancy or fine. Where does one get rigging, braces and cable details? Might it be the "datafiles" many of you speak of from time to time. If so, where do you get them? Enough questions for one posting. I have learned that putting down more than 2 questions and 3 at the tops, they don't get answered, so I've greatly overdone it already. Forgive the long and personal references but I think it adds perspective for you in thinking of me as a new, quite junior member of the list. I'd like to see something of the kind from some more of you too, especially the "big guns" and pros. Thanks in advance (or as you say," TIA") for any help or suggestions you might have. I'll bet I'm not alone in having these problems and questions. Best wishes, Bob G. rgodfrey@sound.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 14:58:15 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fokker D.VIII (part 2) Message-ID: >-- [ From: Kenneth Hagerup * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] -- > <> >Some thoughts on the Sign kit: > >Molded in black, parts are not as nice as the Eduard D.VIII. Shape of >the wing is a little off, fuselage sides inaccurate in the area of the >plywood formers. Decent PE parts (again, not as nice as those with >Eduard's D.VIII kit) including wire wheels. Cast metal engine, prop and >tires for use with PE wire wheels. Odd looking lozenge for top and >bottom. Good registration, but some bleed over on decal sheet. FWIW mine is molded in dark grey. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:55:42 EDT From: mbittner@juno.com (Matthew E Bittner) To: wwi Subject: Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. Message-ID: <19961012.155210.4447.0.mbittner@juno.com> On Sat, 12 Oct 1996 14:57:03 -0400 Robert Godfrey writes: Such an inquisitive mind...:-) First of all, those Revell (no 'a', Erik ;-)) kits are wonderful. Some of the Airfix are, as well. The Sopwith Pup and LFG Roland C.II are by far the best. The Albatros D.V and Fokker Dr.I are the worst, in regards to outline. Just because you bought Airfix doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. ;-) As far as finishes go, so far I've had "easy" ones. One or two colors, with a definite hard outline. Paint the lighter colors first, mask, then the darker ones. About "datafiles", these are the books put out by Ray Rimmel and Albatros Publications. Not only does he put out the Datafile's on specific subjects, but there is also a periodical titled "Windsock". Occassionally, he also puts out "Mini-Datafile"s, Color Specials, and Datafile Specials. They're expensive, so some of the folks with not as great of an interest pick and choose. Some of us "anal-retentive" types :-) get them all. Rigging in 1/72nd is best achieved (IMNSHO) by finding .004" stainless steel wire. However, I personally have also used .006" brass wire, dipped in a chemical called "Blacken It", which, well, makes the wire very dark. Using drawing/drafting dividers, I measure the area I'm going to rig, cut a piece of wire a little longer than the dividers, fit and cut until it fits perfectly, "Blacken It", then adhere with CA. Works fine for me. Most complex schemes can be decals. Lozenge invariably. For me, it's far easier using decals than painting the stuff on. Plus it probably looks better. ;-) Anyway, I hope this answered some of your questions. If you have anymore, feel free to post. Most of the people on this list are more than willing to help out. Good luck! Matt mbittner@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 17:35:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Godfrey To: wwi Subject: does this work? Message-ID: <199610122235.RAA18172@guitar.sound.net> I messed up my list connection and need to see if it's still functioning. Sorry! Bob G. rgodfrey@sound.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 17:09:44 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. Message-ID: <199610130009.AA09747@ednet1.orednet.org> Robert Godfrey writes: >Does anyone do camouflage >and/or lozenges with an airbrush? If so, how? Camouflage, yes, lozenges - well, I suppose there may be some real masochists who might try it but I've never actually met one. I don't know why you would even want to try with so many decent sets of decals available unless you were working in a scale which had no lozenge decals available. Most WWI camouflage schemes were brush applied with "hard" edges so you want to duplicate that with the airbrush - which involves creating templates out of frisket paper or magic tape for the various camouflage patterns. Spray the lightest color, lay down your template to cover the areas to remain that color, spray with the next lightest color, and repeat. It _can_ get interesting when doing something like the 5-color French scheme. (Although usually with that 'un, I only do the underside and the first four colors with the airbrush and templates, finding it easier to just apply the black "footprints" by brush.) Most of the German two and three color camo schemes are a snap though with large-ish areas of each color. If you've got a WWI camo scheme which was airgun applied on the prototype, with "soft" edges, it gets a little trickier. Some folks make templates which stand out "proud" from the aircraft a little bit to allow the overspray to create the "soft" edges. For myself, I find it easier to just do it freehand with the paint well thinned and the pressure turned down. This approach might be tough to use though if you've a cheap single action air brush. It might be tough to get enough control over the application of the paint to do freehand. > They aren't easy to do >with a brush, especially lozenges! From what I've seen on the list, it >looks like there are almost unlimited decals (e.g., Americal/Gryphon) for >almost anything you might want to put on an airplane. If that's how most of >you do it, how do you get decals to lie down smoothly over irregular >surfaces and compound curves? Darn few compound curves on most WW1 airplanes that need lozenges. Few irregular surfaces either for that matter - after all, lozenge decal goes down on areas that were covered with fabric on the _real_ aircraft and real fabric doesn't take to compound curves nor create irregular surfaces. About the only tricky parts are the wing tips and even there, some careful measuring and cutting of the decal _before_ you stick it the water plus some liberal application of a decal softening solution will usually snug it down quite nicely. Do the top of the wing first and allow the decal to wrap around the tip a little - its no trick to cover the excess when you apply the bottom decal over the flatter undersurface. >Their proper use must be an art form. Not really - my first try at it worked out quite nicely. The only real trick is measuring and cutting each decal real carefully before you dip it. Wing surfaces are a snap - just curve the dry decal across the wing surface and mark the leading and trailing edges on the _underside_ with a soft pencil. For trickier areas like fuselages where you can't quite draw an accurate outline by holding the decal itself against the model, I sometimes create templates for those panels. Lay a piece of magic tape over the model and trace out the outline of the panel on the magic tape. Remove the tape and apply it to a piece of .005 or .010 sheet of styrene. Then cut the styrene along the lines and, voila, you've got an accurate template of the panel. Flip the styrene template over, lay it against the reverse side of the decal (the _paper_ side!) and trace around the template with a soft pencil. You can then cut the decal with a pair of scissors and it will fit the panel on the model perfectly. After you've cut out the decal panel, lay it against the model for a quick check - any minor accuracies can usually be fixed with scissors and a mark-10 eyeball. Oh, and work slow applying the lozenge decals. Put down a panel and let it set up and dry completely before you go to apply the adjacent panel. Needless to say, one assembles the top wing to the model (and sometimes the bottom wing and undercarriage) _after_ the lozenge decals are applied and fully dried. Just kinda plain ahead and make sure you can get your fingers in all the places you got to get your fingers to apply the lozenge decals. If a spot would be too awkward to get to if that portion of the model was assembled, apply the lozenge first and assemble afterwards. Don't forget the the ailerons and elevators were covered separately so the lozenge pattern on the wings and tail should rarely match the pattern on the elevators and ailerons. In other words, the wings and the ailerons need to be covered separately. I _always_ mark down when I see both covered with a single piece of lozenge decal. :-) Try it, you'll like it! Cheers, -- -Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org- "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 22:30:47 -0700 From: "Marian Hollinger, Bradley Omanson" To: wwi Subject: Scholar's Bookshelf phone number? Message-ID: <32607E87.1968@host.dmsc.net> Am about to order some WWI aviation books from Scholar's Bookshelf. Does anyone know if they accept phone orders, and, if so, what their number is? They don't list a phone number in their catalogues. Bradley ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:09:18 -0400 From: "S.M. Head" To: wwi Subject: Re: Painting vs decals: camouflage, lozenges, etc. Message-ID: <9610122315.aa16841@mail.iapc.net> Bob typed: > >First of all let me thank the members of this list for teaching me more >about WWI aircraft models and modelling in about 2 months than I learned in >years of "do-it-yourself" experience. I never hope to approach the perfect >miniatures some of you make that, if enlarged, I'm sure could be flown. >Still I am doing a credible job that pleases me and impresses my family. >It's been a great experience. That's what modelling is all about! >My question now is about painting. All my old models were done by hand with >a brush using the original formula Testor's enamels (although near the end >they came out with flat finish paints). I got and used a cheapo Badger >airbrush later on model cars, but not much. Does anyone do camouflage >and/or lozenges with an airbrush? If so, how? They aren't easy to do >with a brush, especially lozenges! From what I've seen on the list, it >looks like there are almost unlimited decals (e.g., Americal/Gryphon) for >almost anything you might want to put on an airplane. If that's how most of >you do it, how do you get decals to lie down smoothly over irregular >surfaces and compound curves? Their proper use must be an art form. You will find at least one method (the one I use) for lozenge decal application in an article I wrote about Lozenge for the IPMS Houston Scale Model Forum website. It covers a brief history, usage, application, and scratches the surface of what's available out there for the modeler. You can access it from the WWI model website or directly at . If you go to the IPMS Houston site you'll want to look in the "Articles" section. Hope this helps. Scott M. Head IPMS/USA #32841 IPMS Houston Scale Model Forum http://web-hou.iapc.net/~smh Win95=Mac'87 ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:40:50 -0500 From: "Stuart L. Malone" To: World War I mailing list Subject: Jasta 14 & 19 squadron markings Message-ID: <326072D2.4C83@sound.net> Well, here's one for the entire group.... I have completed two Revell Fokker Dr I's, and would like to do one for Jasta 14 and one for Jasta 19. The poblem is, I can't find a decent color representation, text description of the paint schemes, or even b&w photos of Dr Is in these Jastas, among my meager references. A friend of mine recollected that Jasta 14 had a black tail with a black bar, and Jasta 19 had yellow tails with yellow cowls. Since this friend is notorious for recollecting incorrect data, I am asking the group for help. BTW, he is also the one who researched these two Jastas as receiving Dr Is. So this may be incorrect as well. Currently, one sits prepped in green brushed over blue, the other, all blue, no green applied (yet). So these babies are ready to roll into the paintbooth..... TIA..... Stuart L. Malone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 22:47:00 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Jasta 14 & 19 squadron markings Message-ID: <199610130547.AA29975@ednet1.orednet.org> > >Well, here's one for the entire group.... > >I have completed two Revell Fokker Dr I's, and would like to do one for >Jasta 14 and one for Jasta 19. The problem is, I can't find a decent >color representation, text description of the paint schemes, or even b&w >photos of Dr Is in these Jastas, among my meager references. There are several color illustrations and several b & w photos of triplanes from both Jastas in the Windsock Datafile Special on the Dr.I. Similarly, Alex Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane" has several black and white photo's of triplanes from both Jastas including some that are different from those in the Datafile Special book. And, if you've a copy of the old Squadron Signal "In Action" book on the triplane, take a look at the top of page 24 - while the "In Action" book identifies this line-up of nine or so triplanes as Jasta 11, Imrie sez its Jasta 19 and I'm pretty sure he's right. >A friend of mine recollected that Jasta 14 had a black tail with a black >bar, and Jasta 19 had yellow tails with yellow cowls. Since this friend >is notorious for recollecting incorrect data, I am asking the group for >help. Jasta 19 seems to be yellow tail surfaces with black stripes and some, though not all, seem to have a light colored cowling. Imrie says the cowling, however, was _white_ not yellow. Looking at the photos, I don't see any evidence that Jasta 14 tails had anything except normal streaked olive although I suppose anything is possible. Imrie, however, gives the markings for Jasta 14 as _only_ a "horizontal black and white stripe on fuselage side on the thrust line from the rear of the engine cowling to sternpost." No mention of any unit colors on the tail surfaces and the photos which show the tail surfaces display no hint of any over painting with unit colors. >BTW, he is also the one who researched these two Jastas as receiving Dr >Is. So this may be incorrect as well. I think it's pretty well established that the 2 Jastas used 'em. >Currently, one sits prepped in green brushed over blue, the other, all >blue, no green applied (yet). So these babies are ready to roll into >the paintbooth..... Whoops! I think the current consensus is that for _all_ triplanes except the first three F.1's and, perhaps the first 20 Dr.I's, the standard Dr.I scheme was turquoise undersides with the upper surfaces streaked olive over _natural fabric_. Green brushed over blue would be incorrect for at least 280 of the 300 Dr.I's built including all the tripes that served with Jastas 14 and 19. 'Course this is only the current consensus and subject to change upon discovery of persuasive evidence to the contrary. Yet the streaked olive over natural fabric seems the best supposition based on current evidence. RAF captured aircraft reports and the few surviving fabric samples seem to rather uniformly support this view. Why those two Jastas? Hardly the two most distinguished Jastas operating the Fokker tripe. Cheers, -- -Bill Shatzer bshatzer@orednet.org- "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 289 *********************