WWI Digest 24 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme by cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) 2) Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme by bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) 3) Latest DML by "Matt Bittner" 4) Sign D-VIII <> Edward D-VIII by aew (Allan Wright) 5) Re: Sign D-VIII <> Edward D-VIII by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 6) Douglas World Cruiser by stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu 7) Re: Douglas World Cruiser by aew (Allan Wright) 8) Re: Douglas World Cruiser by "Matt Bittner" 9) Douglas World Cruiser (bis) by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 10) Fok F1/DR1 - You caught me Bill Shatzer by The Flying Wrench 11) Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme by Erik Pilawskii 12) Re: Douglas World Cruiser by The Flying Wrench 13) cone de penetration by Erik Pilawskii 14) Re: Resin kits by lothar@ncw.net (mark) 15) Re: LARGE SCALE sources by Mick Fauchon 16) Re: Custom Photoetch & Decals by Mick Fauchon 17) Re: Necessities, Necessities - Photoetched 1/48 by Mick Fauchon 18) Re: Revell 1/28 D VII - AARRGGHH!! by Mick Fauchon 19) RE: Revell 1/28 Fokker DVII by Mick Fauchon 20) Re: Glencoe Pfalz D.III by Mick Fauchon 21) Re: cone de penetration by Paul Butler 22) Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme by t_eisen@ix.netcom.com (Thomas Eisenhour ) 23) Re[2]: Douglas World Cruiser by stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu 24) Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme by The Flying Wrench ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 14:06:03 EST From: cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme Message-ID: <199602051906.PAA28559@conted.swann.gatech.edu> Bill, Well said! Of course, I happen to agree with your interpretation. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:36:40 -0800 From: bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme Message-ID: <199602051936.AA04907@ednet1.osl.or.gov> > >Bill, > Well said! Of course, I happen to agree with your >interpretation. > Carlos > > Carlos: Thanks for the encouraging words - 'tis nice to know someone reads what one writes. I omitted one additional interesting fact which I only picked up on after I posted. Jasta 10 was flying Pfalz D.III's at the time of Voss's death. The Pfalz's would, of course, have be predominately silver so McCudden would have been used to and expecting to see a silver e/a. Sometimes one sees what one expects to see. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "Cave ab homine unius libri!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:50:57 -0600 From: "Matt Bittner" To: WW1 Modelers Subject: Latest DML Message-ID: <199602051439.OAA17842@cso.com> To whomever cares: I saw the latest from DML. The Fokker D.VIII with Hans Goethe bust. Why? Why why why? I would have preferred a re-release of the Dr.I with Jacobs' bust. Ah well, such is life. FWIW, a number of people have told me that it *appers* DML will not be doing the Camel. Seems like these same people have not seen it in DML's catalog. Rather, it has been taken out of the more recent one. Can anybody here confirm or deny, with proof? Matt -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Matthew Bittner WW1 Modeler, ecto subscriber, semi-new dad, meba@cso.com PowerBuilder developer; Omaha, Nebraska Disclaimer: opinions expressed by me are my responsibility only. "You cannot make anything foolproof, because the fools are so ingenious." - Christian Walters -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:09:52 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Sign D-VIII <> Edward D-VIII Message-ID: <199602052009.PAA29202@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Now I'm confused. I just got my Squadron catalog and they list BOTH the Sign and Edward D-VIIIs. I thought these were one-in-the-same? -Al ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:50:37 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Sign D-VIII <> Edward D-VIII Message-ID: >Now I'm confused. I just got my Squadron catalog and they list BOTH the >Sign and Edward D-VIIIs. I thought these were one-in-the-same? > I was similarly confused until I saw each of these kits and saw that there are several differences, particularly the decals, particularly the lozenge, sadly they are both pretty pathetic. I've not been able to hold the plastic bits up next to each other (someone out there with both kits ??) but the Sign kit is pretty basic, less than a dozen plastic parts, also the Sign etched brass has spoked wheels included for Polish machines, I don't think this is an option for the Eduard kit. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 12:55:41 PST From: stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu To: wwi Subject: Douglas World Cruiser Message-ID: <9601058235.AA823553896@SCCCGATE.seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu> Anyone built a Williams' Brothers Douglas World Cruiser? Ideas for references, hints, clues. etc? I started looking at one last night and think I may start it soon; thought I might get my ducks in a row first. Yeah, yeah, yeah; this isn't a WWI subject, but its pretty damn close, dontcha think? Or dontcha. -------Stephen Tontoni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:05:12 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Re: Douglas World Cruiser Message-ID: <199602052105.QAA29529@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > Anyone built a Williams' Brothers Douglas World Cruiser? > Ideas for references, hints, clues. etc? I started looking > at one last night and think I may start it soon; thought I > might get my ducks in a row first. > > Yeah, yeah, yeah; this isn't a WWI subject, but its pretty > damn close, dontcha think? Or dontcha. I think anything before WWII is close enough for us here. He don't get too much discussion about transition a/c but go ahead and ask. As long as it's not about an ME-109 (yetch). -Al ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:19:54 -0600 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Douglas World Cruiser Message-ID: <199602051608.QAA19071@cso.com> On 5 Feb 96 at 16:05, Allan Wright typed diligently: > I think anything before WWII is close enough for us here. He don't get too > much discussion about transition a/c but go ahead and ask. As long as it's > not about an ME-109 (yetch). Definitely! Sure, we like to keep to WW1, but for some of these subjects, I have no one else to turn to. It was because of this list that I found references to the Williams Bros. B-10B. Thanks to all! And I'm with Al, anybody mention that 109 thingie, and you'll have to *drink* the castor oil used on rotaries!!! :-)> Matt ------------------------------ Date: 06 Feb 96 07:35:00 EST From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: Douglas World Cruiser (bis) Message-ID: <199602052153.HAA11441@mimmon.mim.com.au> Hi Al >not about an ME-109 (yetch). > >-Al Pardon my ignorance but is (yetch) some sort of geman equivalent to (bis) eg. Nie.17 (bis) ;-) Shane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:01:49 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Fok F1/DR1 - You caught me Bill Shatzer Message-ID: <199602052201.NAA23779@anchor> The Flyin Wrench admits: Very well written Mr. Shatzer, Your legal training shines in these discussions, especially your impeccable faculties for research. I'm impressed. It is new information to me is that there were only two triplanes at the front during Voss's last battle. That pretty well narrows it down, IF we can nail down the colors of those two triplanes. OK, OK, I'll confess, I'll confess. Even though you don't have any kind of evidence against me, I'll confess. I can't bear the pressure of your simple cross examination. I did it. Yes it was me. HA, HA, HA, HA, I just couldn't stand Voss, his quit unassuming ways drove me crazy, and that horrible green color he used on his plane. I just couldn't take it any more. He made me do it, It was all his fault. I murdered Voss and painted his triplane silver/blue to throw off the investigation. I thought no one would believe I did it if I just changed his triplane's color to a lovely silver/blue that would look good on the shelf. Sob, Sob, Sob, I can't take it any more Take me away. There now I've said it. I hope your happy Mr. Shatzer. But I'll be back, just you wait and see, I'll be back. AGGGHHGGGHGGHHHHHHHHHH! - We'll return to Perry Shatzer after these commercial messages - Olive drab breath got you down? Try this new improved can of silver/blue and lift your spirits . . . The Flyin' Wrench Confession is good for the soul - as well as the ratings. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:28:22 -0800 (PST) From: Erik Pilawskii To: wwi Subject: Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Feb 1996, The Flying Wrench wrote: > Now colors were a different duck entirely. Colours are colours. They > do not suffer from the > recognition problem that new equipment does. Blue is blue to German, French, > and British alike. > True there are shades and interpretations of colors and thus when one says > blue it will bring to > mind different shades of blue to different people. However when you say blue > people with normal > colour perception do not think red or black. So to say the aircraft looked > silver blue and > everyone thinks "right, that's a shade of olive drab green" makes no sense. Sorry, but I'll have to respectfully disagree, here. After many years of interviewing pilots of That Other War, I can state unequivocally that such recollections as specific as *color* tend to be utterly suspect-- let alone war-time reports on the subject which usually qualify only as complete nonsense. These reports were written whilst the pilot was subject to the rather extreme stresses of combat, and are colored (bad pun!) in addition by a considerable amount of National propaganda and war-time mental conditioning. Historians feel lucky if these reports can recall even *major* events with some degree of consistancy. How many times, I wonder, have I heard pilot XXXX say, "What?!? Who said THAT???!?!?" "You did, sir. I have a copy of your Combat Report dated, ZZZZZZ" "Impossible! I never said such a thing in my life!" Not that this should be taken as an insult-- it isn't. That's just the nature of the thing. As for what they remember about such coloring, I like to recall the now famous quip from R.S.Tuck to artist Robert Taylor, who was asking the ace about the colors on his machine [he was, in the event, unable to recall any details whatsoever, not even if the scheme was grey/green or brown/ green]: "Hell, Robert, we used to fly the things, not paint 'em...." As well, I find color to be a highly subjective concept (I think someone was mentioning 'color theory'). In particular, such nebulous shades as 'grey' and 'silver' seem most open to different interpretation. I wouldn't be surprised, in the latter case, if the "color" here was not really in regards to the finish, or reflective nature of the aircraft. > Again a new "fact" arises. Now Voss's cowling was yellow! What new evidence > do we have for > this new "truth"? How did it go unnoticed for almost 80 years? The standard I can't answer that one for you, but I can assure you that facts *do* make themselves known after the event, even 80 years on. Chalk it up to more sober attitudes, more serious research, or even just looking at the things for longer and longer; but in any case, it is often the truth. I know in my own case that, 50 years after the fact, people will be utterly flabbergasted by what I have uncovered and learned, and probably quite incredulous, as well. Ah, well... such is the nature of this subject. > History, n. An account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which > are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools. Heh! WAY too true! Cheers, Erik :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "I should have thought that the introduction to the Front of the BE.2c was a tremendous boon in the work of aerial observation-- one could easily follow the trail of their wreckage straight back to any Hun aerodrome...." A.T.Magnuson, M.P. .............................................................................. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:59:01 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Douglas World Cruiser Message-ID: <199602052259.NAA25613@anchor> At 04:01 PM 2/5/96 -0500, stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu wrote: > > Anyone built a Williams' Brothers Douglas World Cruiser? > Ideas for references, hints, clues. etc? I started looking > at one last night and think I may start it soon; thought I > might get my ducks in a row first. > > Yeah, yeah, yeah; this isn't a WWI subject, but its pretty > damn close, dontcha think? Or dontcha. Let's see 6 years after the fact - Hmmmm! Where were you six years ago? I guess we still see the F117 and A-10 of Desert Storm so why not the Douglas World Cruiser six years after WWI? I own the Douglas, but have not built it. It is a nice kit, as is the B-10, especially since these are the only examples of either in any medium. If memory serves, the Douglas kit give you the option of either wheels or floats so you can model it in either operational condition. I speak from "memory" because the model is stored in Texas, as are most of my models and reference material. I have the B-10 here in Alaska and plan on building it along with a Revell 1/72 P-26. I then plan to display these two aircraft together on a wood plaque, a favorite method of basing my miniatures. These two aircraft are "golden age" contempories and are both favorites of mine. I've always liked Williams Bros. kits. To date I've built the LeRhone 80 hp, with the solid crankshaft no less, and a real wood prop cut in the tradition of a prop on a full size engine display. I have also built the largest scale Vickers, Lewis, Spandau and Parabellum. These kits really set off a WWI aircraft display as their presence gives the viewer the opportunity to see the details of such equipment. Add a WWI flying helmet, scarf, and goggles and Viola' (isn't that a large violin?) you have really nice display that goes beyond the shelf-full of models. Williams Bros. does a better than average job in the research and execution of their chosen subjects. Without exception, I find Williams Bros. kits a delight to build and display. In an eariler post I wrote of a book titled "On Miniature Wings". This book has a beautiful diorama of the four World Cruisers at a maintenance stop in Seward Alaska, which is just down the road from where I now reside. If you want an idea of how these aircraft looked in their operational setting, this is a good illustration in 3-D. Many years ago I had an issue of Wings or Airpower that dedicated almost an entire issue to these aircraft and their travels. It made for very interesting reading and had exceptional photo's of the aircraft's construction and their round the world flight with all the trials and tribulations of that adventure. The issue also contained three view drawings and the markings of all four aircraft. This would be an exellence reference source, if you can locate the issue in question. The Flyin' Wrench "Old Boys have their Playthings as well as young Ones; the Difference is only in the Price. Benjamin Franklin - 1752 > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:17:10 -0800 (PST) From: Erik Pilawskii To: ww1 mailer Subject: cone de penetration Message-ID: Greetings, Well, Weal's drawing shows the cone attached via a shaft that travels through the prop hub and along the hollow crankshaft to the firewall. He reiterates in bold italics that it "does not spin". Indeed, there is a picture in the old Profile #49 on the N.17 showing an unusual machine mounting no less than *four* guns (two Vickers and two Lewis) on page 8. This a/c also has a cone, and the engine is running. To my view, it certainly does not appear to be moving. ...And there you have it, Erik :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "I should have thought that the introduction to the Front of the BE.2c was a tremendous boon in the work of aerial observation-- one could easily follow the trail of their wreckage straight back to any Hun aerodrome...." A.T.Magnuson, M.P. .............................................................................. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:39:02 -0800 From: lothar@ncw.net (mark) To: wwi Subject: Re: Resin kits Message-ID: <199602060539.VAA28697@bing.ncw.net> > >On 2/5/96, Jesse spake: > >P.S. Why are so many people familiar with the Firesign Theater on this >list?!?! Is there a casual connection between WWI modeling and FST? > Hey, in the next world, you're on your own.... (the only FST album I ever owned) Mark R. lothar@ncw.net "Police Street......It's the meanest street in town, it's so bad...." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:34:08 +1100 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: LARGE SCALE sources Message-ID: Hi, guys, Forgive me if some of my replies are a bit late; I'm struggling through 407 messages after a bout of the 'flu. 80( If I'm not making sense.......it'll be the cough-medicine.... again.....80) > > > >>What about 1/48 injection molded: LFG Roland DII or CII, Hannover CL IIIa, > >>Halberstadt CL II, III, or IV, LVG C III - VI or any other such aircraft? > >> > > Of the kits listed here only the Hannover has been done as an > >injection kit -snips- > > Er, what about the Aurora Halberstadt CL II? First WW1 airplane kit > I ever built. And, actually not -too- bad a kit. Absolutely! What about the Halbi!? I think I got the only one that ever appeared in Australia. In fact, I still have it, and Bill's dead right, iot's a nice little kit, even for it's age. Sadly though, rumour has it that it was one of the few Aurora moulds that didn't survive. Cheers, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:44:32 +1100 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Custom Photoetch & Decals Message-ID: Joe, > At any rate, I have a number of models that I would like to start/finish, > but one of the things I need to do is have some custom photoetch & decals > made for them. > > Has anyone had any custom photoetching or decals done? Any advice on > vendors, or on the process? What about cost? How cost prohibitive are > these methods? In the oooooold days, i.e pre-pe stuff, we used to fabricate custom parts from kit spares, plastic rod and tube, brass shim, wood, in fact anything that worked. Don't just take my word for it, ask Bill Schatzer, he's gotta be *at least* as old as I am 80). Isn't that right, Bill? I wonder if it still works. And then there was always hand-painting custom markings.....sigh! > > Thanks for any advice/help. > My $A0.02 worth 80) Cheers, Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 22:07:44 +1100 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Necessities, Necessities - Photoetched 1/48 Message-ID: "Wrench", [BTW, you'd probably be called "Spanner" down here 80), ......and even in N.Z. 80) 80)] On Sun, 28 Jan 1996, The Flying Wrench wrote: Hell's bells! Is it that late already? Where have I been this last week? Must be the cough medicine 80( > > Does anyone know if Windsock has repub'd Datafile #7 - Pfalz III, or > any other good research sources for this aircraft? As far as I know, yes it has. Also the old Profile Publication on the III/IIIa is not bad, if you can still run one down; Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War One has some useful scrap drawings, and various magazine articles like Scale Models, November 1976, PAM News international, [can't find a date on my copy, but it's pp. 573-575; Combat colours, no. 13: The Pfalz DIII, Airfix magazine, Jan. 1982, pp. 230-231. That should do for a start, unless there's anything specific you'd like to know. (I told you I liked the > plane). Hey! Any friend of a DIII, or DIIIA, is a friend of mine! > > Also I would like to know who is the best third party at 1/48 > photoetched (or other medium?) components, Machine guns, Seat belts/harness, > controls and the like. This of course is asked with an eye towards availability. I haven't dealt with Tom's since he went resin, but I'm sure they make a set. But if it's possible to detail the cockpit of a Pfalz DXII without using pe, it can be done for a 'III 80) Just ask me 80) > > And lastly did someone mention an injection LFG Roland C.II in 1/48? > I thought I saw this in a recent post but I can't seem to locate such a post > now. > Unless I've missed something, I suspect not. Mick. > > It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing. > > Thomas Jefferson - 1792 Thomas who? Obviously not an aircraft modeller 80) > > > -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 22:24:00 +1100 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Revell 1/28 D VII - AARRGGHH!! Message-ID: > Guten Abend Meine Damen und Herren! Besten guten Abend, Herr Springer! 80) ............[lots of good stuff deleted, but noted] > > Bah! Donnerwetter! Indeed, Donnerwetter nochmal!! > > Franz und Emil > Thank you, Franz and Emil........I think. Franz und Emil? Tsch"u3, Mick. > -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 22:44:44 +1100 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Revell 1/28 Fokker DVII Message-ID: Shane, > I think he might mean OAW > > Ostdeutsche Albatros Werke > > Which is NOT Albatros, though they made the Fokker D.VII as well. > THe main factory of the Albatroswerke was at Johannisthal; they also had a subsidiary at Schneidem"uhl, producing under licence for Fokker, but it was one company. Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 22:54:10 +1100 (EST) From: Mick Fauchon To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Glencoe Pfalz D.III Message-ID: > > It sounds as if no part of the gun barrel is visible from a side view, > only from directly in front. Are the gun ports large enough that the > cooling jackets are visible, or is only the barrel itself visible? > Tip: Ian Stair's excellent drawings in the Windsock Datafile reveal all. Or should that read: HEADLINE!:.... ? 80) Mick. -- -- Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM M M M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!" M M M M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M M M MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 22:52:57 +1100 (EST) From: Paul Butler To: wwi Subject: Re: cone de penetration Message-ID: <199602061152.WAA13248@werple.net.au> Sorry Guys but I think I will have to butt in: Erik wrote: > Well, Weal's drawing shows the cone attached via a shaft that travels >through the prop hub and along the hollow crankshaft to the firewall. He >reiterates in bold italics that it "does not spin". Indeed, there is a >picture in the old Profile #49 on the N.17 showing an unusual machine >mounting no less than *four* guns (two Vickers and two Lewis) on page 8. >This a/c also has a cone, and the engine is running. To my view, it >certainly does not appear to be moving. > > ...And there you have it, Erik I am afraid it cannot be so, " a shaft that travels through the prop hub and along the hollow crankshaft to the firewall". The crankshaft of a rotary engine is "stationary" and fixed to the fire wall. The crankcase rotates abour the crank journals and the conrods rotate about the fixed crankpin. If there was any shaft passing though a "hollow" crank shaft, it would be intercepted by the conrods as they rotated about the crankpin. In effect the engine would lock solid when the first conrod hit this imaginary shaft. There is no mystery about how this all works. The shaft that affixes the propellor shaft to the crankcase is indeed hollow and the rigid cranshaft (or an extension affixed to it) passes through the hollow prop shaft to support the non rotating cone de penetration. Another seemly strange fact about a rotary is that the pistons DO NOT GO UP AND DOWN, the simply rotate about the crankpin in a constant radius circle. Since the cylinders are also rotating in a fixed radius circle but about an axis offset to the pistons, the pistons do move relative to the cylinders. However there is no acceleration and deceleration that causes vibration in a normal radial engine. Paul Butler ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 05:45:34 -0800 From: t_eisen@ix.netcom.com (Thomas Eisenhour ) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme Message-ID: <199602061345.FAA02463@ix10.ix.netcom.com> Bill wrote: > >I omitted one additional interesting fact which I only picked up >on after I posted. Jasta 10 was flying Pfalz D.III's at the time >of Voss's death. The Pfalz's would, of course, have be predominately >silver so McCudden would have been used to and expecting to see >a silver e/a. Sometimes one sees what one expects to see. I really enjoyed your thoughtful treatise on the fallibility of memory. While reading it, I had (what at the time seemed like) A BRILLIANT IDEA. What if everyone's description of 103/17 could be correct? Could Voss' triplane have been repainted shortly before he was shot down to have a yellow cowling, wheel covers,and rudder; silver/aluminum doped fuselage; with wings and tail left streaked green? In other words, painted to more closely match the Pfalz D.IIIs that Jasta 10 was being equipped with. Then I went back and reviewed the British wreckage investigation which makes no mention of any colorful paint scheme and clearly states that the fuselage was finished in streaked camo. OK scratch that idea. Then I thought, two Jasta 10 aircraft were involved in the dogfight, perhaps the other aircraft was an aluminum-doped Pfalz, and McCudden must have combined the two aircraft in his memory and come up with a silver F.I. Reading the combat reports of the British pilots of 56 and 60 Squadron, it was an Albatros D.V, not a Pfalz, that was involved in Voss' final combat, so scratch that theory as well. So, I am forced to conclude that McCudden misremembered and that 103/17 was in factory-standard finish as you described. Darn it. Good work! Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 07:50:43 PST From: stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu To: wwi Subject: Re[2]: Douglas World Cruiser Message-ID: <9601068236.AA823621935@SCCCGATE.seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu> In an eariler post I wrote of a book titled "On Miniature Wings". This book has a beautiful diorama of the four World Cruisers at a maintenance stop in Seward Alaska, which is just down the road from where I now reside. If you want an idea of how these aircraft looked in their operational setting, this is a good illustration in 3-D. Many years ago I had an issue of Wings or Airpower that dedicated almost an entire issue to these aircraft and their travels. It made for very interesting reading and had exceptional photo's of the aircraft's construction and their round the world flight with all the trials and tribulations of that adventure. The issue also contained three view drawings and the markings of all four aircraft. This would be an exellence reference source, if you can locate the issue in question. I saw a diorama (photo) recently of the World Cruisers sitting at the dock of the bay (with Otis Redding?) but I will probably do a wheeled version. Not sure. Of course, I will want to do the one called "Seattle" (wheels or floats?). I have a PILE of Wings/Airpower, so I should look there next. Chances are that from that source, I will not find photos or drawings of cockpit details, but maybe some rigging if I am lucky. I'll check the mags and if I come up dry, will post again to see what you all might have for references. ----later ------ Stephen Tontoni ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:11:53 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme Message-ID: <199602061611.HAA29959@anchor> At 09:51 AM 2/6/96 -0500, Thomas Eisenhour wrote: >Bill wrote: >> >>I omitted one additional interesting fact which I only picked up >>on after I posted. Jasta 10 was flying Pfalz D.III's at the time >>of Voss's death. The Pfalz's would, of course, have be predominately >>silver so McCudden would have been used to and expecting to see >>a silver e/a. Sometimes one sees what one expects to see. > >I really enjoyed your thoughtful treatise on the fallibility of memory. >While reading it, I had (what at the time seemed like) A BRILLIANT >IDEA. What if everyone's description of 103/17 could be correct? Could >Voss' triplane have been repainted shortly before he was shot down to >have a yellow cowling, wheel covers,and rudder; silver/aluminum doped >fuselage; with wings and tail left streaked green? In other words, >painted to more closely match the Pfalz D.IIIs that Jasta 10 was being >equipped with. > >Then I went back and reviewed the British wreckage investigation which >makes no mention of any colorful paint scheme and clearly states that >the fuselage was finished in streaked camo. OK scratch that idea. > >Then I thought, two Jasta 10 aircraft were involved in the dogfight, >perhaps the other aircraft was an aluminum-doped Pfalz, and McCudden >must have combined the two aircraft in his memory and come up with a >silver F.I. Reading the combat reports of the British pilots of 56 and >60 Squadron, it was an Albatros D.V, not a Pfalz, that was involved in >Voss' final combat, so scratch that theory as well. > >So, I am forced to conclude that McCudden misremembered and that 103/17 >was in factory-standard finish as you described. Darn it. > >Good work! > >Tom The Wrench Hrummphs: I don't care, I wasn't there, and now I'm doing what's only fair - I'm painting my DR.I Silver/blue, Voss was obviously colour blind when he did not do so. His loss my gain. I'm going to start painting right after I glue the prop rigidly to the front. Again I would like to verify: Were there in fact only (2) two DR.Is present at the front during Voss's last battle and was Voss flying one of these? Did the entire myth of the silver/blue colour scheme stem from McCudden's report? Were there any other reports on this by other witnesses? My understanding was that this colour was reported by several different witnesses present during the battle. I seem to remember some ground observers to this battle. Another interesting point mentioned here was Jasta 10 being requipped with Pfalz DIIIs. I was always under the impression that the the Pfalz was phased out in favor of the aircraft like the Triplane. Can someone clarify this? And finally, talk about easy identification mistakes to make - how about mistaking a Pfalz DIII for an Albatros DV? This is an interesting thread to follow (check out the net phraseology creeping into these postings) as the presence of Pfalz DIIIs in the area and a silver coloured aircraft seem to have a lot in common. From the reports I have read, there seems to have been a silver aircraft present at the battle This aircraft did not have to be Voss's tripe. I must admit I am at a disadvantage here as I am operating strictly from memory. All of my reference material on this is 4000 miles from where I presently sit. God I can't believe it: It has actually snowed here. Snow - can you believe it? And just yesterday I was commenting on how glad I was that I didn't live in a state with bad winters like New York, or Tennessee. Worse yet it's up to 24 degrees. If this keeps up Floridians will be moving up here to keep warm. Well, time to go brush the snow off the T-cart's wings. All for now. The Flyin' Wrench Where liberity dwells, there is my country. Benjamin Franklin - 1783 ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 24 ********************