WWI Digest 23 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Revell 1/28 Fokker DVII by TXW@psulias.psu.edu (Lord Flashart) 2) Re: Revell 1/28 Fokker DVII by TXW@psulias.psu.edu (Lord Flashart) 3) RE: Guynemer's Nieuport - Cone de penetr by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 4) Re: Dave Klaus URL? by GRBroman@aol.com 5) Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme by JimMaas@aol.com 6) Re: Dave Klaus URL? by JimMaas@aol.com 7) Eduard Sopwith Triplane/Any news? by tsunami0@ix.netcom.com (Anthony & Ellen Sanchez ) 8) UPDATES 4 by edward@isomedia.com (Edward Hawkins) 9) Re: Resin kits by gspring@ix.netcom.com (Greg Springer ) 10) Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme by The Flying Wrench 11) Re: Resin kits by The Flying Wrench 12) Warped Wing Fixed-Thanks! by Charles Stephanian 13) Re: Dave Klaus URL? by Charles Stephanian 14) Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme by bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) 15) Re: Subscribe by aew (Allan Wright) 16) Update 4 by aew (Allan Wright) 17) Artwork by aew (Allan Wright) 18) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport - cone de penetration by Erik Pilawskii ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:35:30 -0500 From: TXW@psulias.psu.edu (Lord Flashart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Revell 1/28 Fokker DVII Message-ID: <199602042135.QAA43292@r02n05.cac.psu.edu> At 8:23 PM 2/2/96 -0500, Greg Springer wrote (in part): > > >I was working from the centerfold profile of this scheme which is in >the old Osprey Airwar #17 'German Fighter Units June 1917-1918'. >That illustration shows the undersides light blue. The notes say that >this was a common feature of OAW-built DVIIs. > >Hope this helps. > >Cheers! > >Greg Yes! It helps greatly and only confirms my suspicion that some of these companies that are trying to make so-called "multinational" plans (with very little background and letter codes for colors) are getting a tad careless. I Fokker DVII with mint green underside just wouldn't have looked right. Tim W. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:39:10 -0500 From: TXW@psulias.psu.edu (Lord Flashart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Revell 1/28 Fokker DVII Message-ID: <199602042139.QAA24038@r02n05.cac.psu.edu> At 3:26 AM 2/3/96 -0500, The Flying Wrench wrote: >At 08:23 PM 2/2/96 -0500, Greg Springer wrote: >>Hi Tim! >>You wrote: >> > >>This is wierd. I bought my DVII in Germany (came to about $20.00 US) > >The Wrench inquires: > >What do you consider wierd? The fact that it cost $20 in Germany and $30 in >the US? Or the fact that you purchased the kit in Germany. Why would you >consider either of these to be wierd? > > "The Flyin' Wrench" > > I find it odd that the prices vary so much. This may have something to do with exchange rate or even tax systems, extra costs for importing, whatever. It's not meant to be a criticism. One thing I really like about Germany (having also lived there for a time) in particular is the price on the tag is the price you pay. Taxes and other graft are already included, unlike here where you have to sit around figuring extra percentages. Tim W. ------------------------------ Date: 05 Feb 96 07:54:00 EST From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: RE: Guynemer's Nieuport - Cone de penetr Message-ID: <199602042211.IAA14071@mimmon.mim.com.au> Hello all, My last word on this subject >The Flyin' Wrench Pontificates: > >Now just a minute here: I think we're running off the deep end here a bit. >True, the cone-de-silence could have been mounted on a claptraddle grid >gigamaried around the outer edge of the prop - but I doubt it. > Sure do agrees with that. You'd see it in the pictures for one thing. >Now anyone with a bit of background on the rotary will quickly see that the >hollow portion of the crankshaft so often spoken of, was the intake tube of at >the rear of the engine True, true, >. The prop hub was solid and rigidly mounted on a large >flange that comprised the front of the crankcase of the rotary. Nope, wrong. There are plenty of photographs available showing the prop on Nieuport fighters standing well off the front face of the crankcase. Have a look in J.M.Bruces' Nieuport Special Vol 1, wherein the shaft shaped forward extension of the crankcase is clearly seen in numerous photos. >There was no >stationary portion of the engine at the pointy part with the whirly-ma-thing up >front. Even if this was the case I can't imagine going to the effort to actually >mount a cone-de-creame on a stationary widget up front. Take a look at any >rotary drawing and you will quickly see the error of this highly imaginative >thought process. Highly imaginative indeed, but not in error. In the same volume we see reproduced Nieuports patent application drawing.This shows clearly how a forward extension of the engines stationary crankshaft protrudes through the hollow tubular portion of the engine crankcase (and propellor hub mounted thereon) (snip, long story about something unrelated) > What's the point? Nothing I just wanted to tell this story about hollow crankshafts. thanks >Actually from an engineering standpoint, why take the chance of a hollow shaft >for the propeller when there is no need to engineer one? There was no need for a >hollow shaft on these engines, other then perhaps weight. When one takes into >account the forces acting on a prop shaft from the flight loads imposed by >combat maneuvers, why put that unnecessary engineering effort into a component >that would be far safer as a solid unit? And so they didn't. True, true. Of course they didn't engineer a hollow prop shaft _because_it_didn't_have_one_. Nevertheless, there was a hole through the cetre of the forward part of the crankcase AND HAD TO BE. Your turn to think about the engineering standpoint. Imagine the weight of the entire engine balanced precariously on a rear bearing only. Add the flexing moments caused by the action of the cylinders and we have a neat recipe for failure of the bearing or cracking of the rear engine crank case. The engine had to be supported by the crankshaft at the "pointy end" too. >The prop shaft, hub >and attached components were solid on all the Gnome, LeRhones and tailbones that >I have been acquainted with. These engines used the solid, tapered, shaft >with a keyway and threaded shaft end to mount the hub assembly. A large hub >nut was screwed on the threaded end of the prop shaft to retain the hub and >a retaining or lock plate was employed over the assembly to lock the hub nut >and the propeller nuts in place. Which just goes to show that you can learn a new trick every day. Even an 80 year old one. >Now if you said the cone-de-head was mounted on a sky hook - you might just have something there. ....or that Nieuport in 1916 would adhere to modern day engineering methods. The cone-de-penetration was an engineering and aeronautical dead end. But no amount of sarcasm about its utility will make it disappear from the history. Regards Shane (whose balls aren't big enough to fly an ag-cat whose chest isn't hairy enough to be an aircraft engineer but who likes to look at pictures, and drawings and read the squigly bits underneath with an open mind) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 17:26:59 -0500 From: GRBroman@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Dave Klaus URL? Message-ID: <960204172658_214030179@emout09.mail.aol.com> Tom, here is the URL for Dave Klaus- www.meteorprod.com, I have another you may be interested in: http://msowww.anu.ed.au/~dfk/tech/color.html#FAQcoulours_uk. I beleive this one has additional colour info. Glen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 17:35:10 -0500 From: JimMaas@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme Message-ID: <960204173509_414416162@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-02-03 22:16:47 EST, Bill Shatzer wrote: > I'd submit that observations of pilots in the heat of >combat are often more inaccurate than otherwise. I'll second that, with evidence. A couple of years ago, evidently during a period of excess fre time, I sat down with the Shore/Franks/Bailey books 'Above the Trenches' and 'Over the Front" - which cover the aces, and individual victory lists for those aces, of the RFC/RAF, French and American air arms. I'd recently read something about the degree of inaccuracy in victory claims, so I came up with a simple research project. Go through those lists, identify all the Dr.I's claimed by the Allied aces, and compare to German losses. Why the Dr.I? - Because it is distinctive in the air (maybe a couple of other German triplane fighters existed, but they weren't significant on the front) and also distinctive in print - you can pick 'Dr.I' out of a list a lot better than 'D.III" (Pfalz or Albatros?) or 'D.VII' (or was that 'DVIII"). The upshot was the Allied aces (not even counting any non-aces who may have claimed Dr.I's) shot down almost as many Triplanes as Fokker built. Since that doesn't even allow for non-combat accidents, worn-out machines struck off charge, etc., I think you can fairly draw the conclusion that these pilots were shooting at something other than a Fokker triplane. So if these pilots couldn't count the right number of wings, the accuracy of their color reports is a little less than convincing. Most recent sources I've seen suggest the cowling was yellow; the rudder color is still under debate. As to the 'silver' color, some triplanes evidently had been painted overall turquoise (the undersurface color) before the green streaking was applied. This might account for some of the 'oddball' reports of unusually colored triplanes. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 17:39:41 -0500 From: JimMaas@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Dave Klaus URL? Message-ID: <960204173940_414419395@mail04.mail.aol.com> Dave can be reached at his mailorder shop web page: http://www.meteorprod.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 1996 19:58:25 GMT From: tsunami0@ix.netcom.com (Anthony & Ellen Sanchez ) Subject: Eduard Sopwith Triplane/Any news? Message-ID: <4f0ep1$sks@reader2.ix.netcom.com> Hello all; Just wondering if anyone has any info./news on the release of the Eduard Sopwith Triplane 1:48 scale? Thanks, Anthony Sanchez IPMS 33799 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:54:37 -0800 From: edward@isomedia.com (Edward Hawkins) To: wwi Subject: UPDATES 4 Message-ID: <199602050054.QAA26229@isomedia.com> Update on bidding. **** THE GERMAN GIANTS - STORY OF THE "R" PLANES 1914-1919 **** This book was up for sale at a set price initially, after it was posted, there were so many responses that I put the book up for bid. There is a smoke stain down the side of the paper edges, the book is still in fine condition. THE GERMAN GIANTS - THE GERMAN "R" PLANES 1914-1918 G.W. HADDOW & PETER M. GROSZ 310 PAGES 1962 PICTURES/PLANS/CHARTS/SPECS/TEXT/WAR HISTORY HARDBACK Current Bidders are: $25.00 Gerald P. McOsker $50.00 Michel.Lefort@ping.be (Michel Lefort) $55.00 Joseph R. Boeke" --Gone... To Joseph R. Boeke ... **** MARINE AIRCRAFT OF THE 1914-1918 WAR **** This book was up for sale at a set price initially, after it was posted, there were so many responses that I put the book up for bid. There is a SLIGHT smoke stain down the side of the paper edges, the book is still in fine condition. MARINE AIRCRAFT OF THE 1914-1918 WAR HARLEYFORD PUBLICATIONS LIMITED 1966 210 PAGES TEXT, PICTURES, PLANS SMOKE STAIN ON SIDE $50.00 Michel.Lefort@ping.be (Michel Lefort) $75.00 agrafix@ix.netcom.com (Richard G. Ivansek ) $90.00 Joseph R. Boeke" --Gone... To Joseph R. Boeke Edward :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:00:46 -0800 From: gspring@ix.netcom.com (Greg Springer ) To: wwi Subject: Re: Resin kits Message-ID: <199602050200.SAA29120@ix2.ix.netcom.com> Hi Jim! You wrote: > >>--Jesse said> >> >>P.S. Why are so many people familiar with the Firesign Theater on this >>list?!?! Is there a casual connection between WWI modeling and FST? >> > Oh! Oh! A mis-spent youth rears its head again :-) What is the >Firesign Theater? Thanks & Cheers - Jim. > The FST is four guys who created a series of humor albums in the 70's including but not limited to: 'Waiting for the Electrician or Someone like Him', Don't Crush that Dwarf, Hand me the Pliers', 'We're All Bozos on this Bus', The Tale of the Giant Rat of Sumatra', 'Everything You Know is Wrong' and others. They liked to recreate the old radio serial shows but based on their own off-the-wall humor. 'Nick Danger, Third Eye' comes to mind. Other trade-marks of their work are superb sound and spatial effects and all kinds of obscure references and puns that I'm still discovering after 20 years of listening. Headline: Sultan Insulted in Malay Melee. Cheers! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:52:16 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme Message-ID: <199602050452.TAA22805@anchor> At 05:33 PM 2/4/96 -0500, JimMaas@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 96-02-03 22:16:47 EST, Bill Shatzer wrote: > >> I'd submit that observations of pilots in the heat of >>combat are often more inaccurate than otherwise. > >I'll second that, with evidence. A couple of years ago, evidently during a >period of excess fre time, I sat down with the Shore/Franks/Bailey books >'Above the Trenches' and 'Over the Front" - which cover the aces, and >individual victory lists for those aces, of the RFC/RAF, French and American >air arms. I'd recently read something about the degree of inaccuracy in >victory claims, so I came up with a simple research project. Go through >those lists, identify all the Dr.I's claimed by the Allied aces, and compare >to German losses. Why the Dr.I? - Because it is distinctive in the air >(maybe a couple of other German triplane fighters existed, but they weren't >significant on the front) and also distinctive in print - you can pick 'Dr.I' >out of a list a lot better than 'D.III" (Pfalz or Albatros?) or 'D.VII' (or >was that 'DVIII"). The upshot was the Allied aces (not even counting any >non-aces who may have claimed Dr.I's) shot down almost as many Triplanes as >Fokker built. Since that doesn't even allow for non-combat accidents, >worn-out machines struck off charge, etc., I think you can fairly draw the >conclusion that these pilots were shooting at something other than a Fokker >triplane. So if these pilots couldn't count the right number of wings, the >accuracy of their color reports is a little less than convincing. The Wrench writes volume one fo his new novel You are confusing apples and oranges here You're talking planform, we're talking color. First thing: Aircraft types and planform. As we look back with our extensive knowledge about all the aircraft on both sides, we can spot a shape from a distance (either in a photo or reality) and say: Look a Dombringer D.IIIX, Wow you know there were only 17 of those made including the prototype? The folks that were there had no such luxury. Many did not have any idea of the make or model of aircraft they we're looking at, so they would pick out a convenient and familiar name they knew for their report. This happened frequently in the Pacific during the second world war, when virtually every single engine fighter fired upon was listed as a "Zero", at least until more information started coming in later in the war. How many allied reports have you seen referring to recognition of a Siemens-Shuckert D.IV that was actually listed as such in the report? Yep, happens every war. The combatants do not have up to the minute reports on the enemy's equipment names much less reference books to look at. Now I understand that military intelligence did obtain the types and names of new equipment, however this information was not immediately distributed to front line units. This did change as wartime communication improved, but WWI was still in the dark ages for that kind of information dissemination to front line groups. Often the first real knowledge a unit received was when an enemy aircraft was captured intact or a prisoner revealed information about their equipment. This information was collected and passed to the rear for examination. But often such communication was one way. Thus a unit in one sector would bring down a new type aircraft and thus gain knowledge about that new type aircraft while another unit nearby would be unaware for sometime of that same type aircraft. Many of the every rear engine "birdcages" von Richtofen (ouch! there's that reference again) waxed, were listed as FEs although many were actually other aircraft, often the DH2. Note: These are his combat reports, not the later sanitized verified and corrected tally sheets one now encounters in various books on the subject. Admittedly the planform looked similar but this exactly what I am talking about here - the ease of mistaking one aircraft type for another. So it was often out of reporting convenience or lack of information that such errors were made. Now colors were a different duck entirely. Colours are colours. They do not suffer from the recognition problem that new equipment does. Blue is blue to German, French, and British alike. True there are shades and interpretations of colors and thus when one says blue it will bring to mind different shades of blue to different people. However when you say blue people with normal colour perception do not think red or black. So to say the aircraft looked silver blue and everyone thinks "right, that's a shade of olive drab green" makes no sense. Even more to the point - the descriptions I have heard of the reported silver/blue of Voss's airplane refer to a LIGHT colour. The olive drab green that was the factory scheme was a DARK colour. I find it unlikely that a light colour, of any shade, was mistaken for a dark colour. This is basic light versus dark identification. Such ID can even be made in low light. One might not be able to say blue vs white or black vs brown in such light conditions, but one can say light vs dark in such conditions. You always hear the description of the pedestrian struck by a vehicle as: "The pedestrian was wearing dark (or light) clothing." Here then is why I believe as I do, the issue is one of light colouring vs dark colouring. A difficult mistake to make especially when there is more than one eyewitness describing such colouring. My previous research indicates that more than one witness described the silver, blue, silver/blue coloring of such an aircraft. Again I say that I believe a silver/blue coloured aircraft was present at the battle, whether Voss was flying it is highly debatable. Then there is one other question: How did such information become so widely accepted? I can remember that in my younger days the silver/blue coloring was a widely accepted "fact". Where did this begin? Did someone simply make up this idea or is this a gross interpretation of the given combat reports. Why is it now totally refuted? What absolute evidence is there that proves this to the contrary? How did one myth start and become accepted and then so much later come to be replaced by a new truth? I will say this from my own personal observation of personality types. As a mechanic I never concerned myself much with the appearance of my vehicles. I was always far more concerned as to the operating condition than the paint job. I find this to be overwhelmingly true with most mechanical type personalities. Outward appearance matters little when compared with mechanical soundness of a vehicle or device. I seldom paint my vehicles and never just to change a color. If the paint is doing a good job of mechanically protecting the metal then I leave it alone. But I often put in new engines and mechanical equipment and oddly enough, I sometimes add a personal marking or two. Hence, the ugly, puke yellow Honda I once owned got all sorts of new mechanical equipment, brakes, fuel pump, etc. But nonetheless stayed ugly, puke, yellow. I did however add the logo "Banzai Buggy" to the rear and I wanted to add large honomarus to the doors, but I felt that would have been too garish. My T-Cart has new harnesses, seats, propeller, intake gaskets, and 213th Squadron, Screaming Indian heads on each side of the cowl. But no new paint anywhere. This is typical of a mechanic's thought process. Voss possessed the same personality type, A tinkerer. He owned a motorcycle and was always tinkering with the motor on it (I've owned eighteen, but then again I've also lived twenty years longer). Likewise he was always working on his aircraft engines, guns and other mechanical components. I would find it very easy to believe that the last concern on his list would be to have his airplane repainted especially when such pretty work can actually have adverse effects on a machine that is already in sound working order. I have personally witnessed a gear up landings after repainting because the gear doors were reinstalled improperly. I have seen controls gummed up because the hinges were not masked properly. In this light I can see were Voss would have left his aircraft in the standard factory color. >Most recent sources I've seen suggest the cowling was yellow; the rudder >color is still under debate. As to the 'silver' color, some triplanes >evidently had been painted overall turquoise (the undersurface color) before >the green streaking was applied. This might account for some of the >'oddball' reports of unusually colored triplanes. Again a new "fact" arises. Now Voss's cowling was yellow! What new evidence do we have for this new "truth"? How did it go unnoticed for almost 80 years? The standard factory rudder color was white. Again I ask why would this be changed at this late date? Is it perhaps that each new generation has to discover new truths about their interests. Is it perhaps due to the need for new and interesting concepts that present new challenges as opposed to accepting the staid and stodgy facts of yesteryear. One of the aspects of the great war that makes it so interesting and challanging is the lack of adequate information and proper documentation either through loss or oversight. The lack of color photos also plays a big part in the conjecture of facts. Will we ever know for cretain? Will we ever have indisputable facts? Or will Voss's airplane have another new color next year? Page two! The Flyin' Wrench History, n. An account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools. Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" - 1906 There is nothing so powerful as truth; and often nothing so strange. Daniel Webster ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:55:23 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Resin kits Message-ID: <199602050455.TAA22865@anchor> At 08:59 PM 2/4/96 -0500, Greg Springer wrote: >Hi Jim! > >You wrote: >> >>>--Jesse said> >>> >>>P.S. Why are so many people familiar with the Firesign Theater on >this >>>list?!?! Is there a casual connection between WWI modeling and FST? >>> >> Oh! Oh! A mis-spent youth rears its head again :-) What is the >>Firesign Theater? Thanks & Cheers - Jim. >> >The FST is four guys who created a series of humor albums in the 70's >including but not limited to: 'Waiting for the Electrician or Someone >like Him', Don't Crush that Dwarf, Hand me the Pliers', 'We're All >Bozos on this Bus', The Tale of the Giant Rat of Sumatra', 'Everything >You Know is Wrong' and others. They liked to recreate the old radio >serial shows but based on their own off-the-wall humor. 'Nick Danger, >Third Eye' comes to mind. Other trade-marks of their work are superb >sound and spatial effects and all kinds of obscure references and puns >that I'm still discovering after 20 years of listening. > >Headline: Sultan Insulted in Malay Melee. > >Cheers! > >Greg > Ahem - Now then we'll just put this little boxcar full of industrial grade coke in here and . . . . . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:05:39 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Stephanian To: wwi Subject: Warped Wing Fixed-Thanks! Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Feb 1996, Thomas Eisenhour wrote: > > Regarding taking it back to the store and exchanging it: forget it. > The're ALL probably warped. > > Good luck! Give us feedback on which method works. > > Tom You guys are the best! I got lots of excellent suggestions on how to cure my warped Spad wing. I followed the method suggested by about three modelers....I dunked the wing in a large cake pan that I had filled with boiling hot water (I let it sit about 30 seconds, and also had tried this with a thick piece of sprue). After 2 minutes in the hot water, I placed the wing on a hard, flat surface and put a heavy weight on top of the wing..Presto, 2 hours later, I checked it and it was flat as a board. Thanks again. I'm a newcomer to this list and already the questions I've posted have been answered with helpful, thoughtful suggestions. Charles Stephanian csteph@itsa.ucsf.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:14:56 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Stephanian To: wwi Subject: Re: Dave Klaus URL? Message-ID: I believe that Dave Klaus is Meteor Productions. Their web page is at http://www.meteorprod.com Charles Stephanian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:05:25 -0800 From: bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fok F1/DR1 color scheme Message-ID: <199602050805.AA02807@ednet1.osl.or.gov> > >At 05:33 PM 2/4/96 -0500, JimMaas@aol.com wrote: >>In a message dated 96-02-03 22:16:47 EST, Bill Shatzer wrote: >> >>> I'd submit that observations of pilots in the heat of >>>combat are often more inaccurate than otherwise. >> >>I'll second that, with evidence. -snips- > >The Wrench writes volume one fo his new novel > > You are confusing apples and oranges here You're talking planform, >we're talking color. -snips- > Now colors were a different duck entirely. Colours are colours. They >do not suffer from the >recognition problem that new equipment does. Blue is blue to German, French, >and British alike. -much of the Wrench's fascinating new novel snipped- Well, your points are well taken, but (there is always a 'but', isn't there?) Admittedly colors are -seen- the same by German, British, and, even, Italian eyes. But, colors as seen are -not- always the colors that are -rememberered-. I only point out the obvious from my freshman lawschool class where they performed an illustrative experiment to demonstrate the failability of eye-witness memory. They showed a film of an automobile accident and, immediately after showing the film, asked the viewers a series of questions about what they had seen. Among the questions was, as I recall, one along the lines of, "Did the red pickup truck have its turn signals on?" Of course this question was only asked of half the class, the other half was asked the question, "Did the pickup truck have its turn signals one?" In fact, of course, the pickup truck was -not- red but rather green (or some such). Three days later, the quiz was repeated but instead of the turn signal question, the question was "What color was the pickup truck?" Needless to say, well over half the folks who had been asked the question about the turn signals on the -red- pickup thought the truck had been red while almost no one who had been asked the original color neutral question thought the truck was red. By way of further illustration: On Christmas day, 1941, seven AVG P-40's intercepted a formation of Japanese aircraft east of Rangoon. Here are the extracts from three pilots' after action reports: Robert Hedman: "Markings and Camouflage of Enemy a/c: Light Brown with green patches, light blue on bottom, Red circles on wing tips (top and bottom)" Charles Older: "Markings and Camouflage of Enemy a/c: Brown and green camouflage on upper surface. Grayish green camo. underneath. Red circles on upper and lower wings." P. Dupuoy: "Markings and Camouflage of Enemy a/c: Solid orange circles on wings and fuselage. Slanted stripes on fighters. Fuselage, light green." Well, what was it? Were the undersurfaces light blue or grayish green? Were the fuselages brown and green or light green? Were the hinomarus orange or red? And, to cap this off, let me quote further from Dupuoy's report: "This fighter had square wingtips and a inline engine. I believe it was a ME 109. RAF Flying Officer Bingham Wallace saw this fighter as well and also believes it a ME 109." Of course, at this time, the Japanese had -no- fighters with inline engines, -no- fighters with square wingtips, and, certainly, -no- Messerschmitts! Or, to bring this back to WW1 a little bit, in "Fighting the Flying Circus", Rickenbacker describes his victory on Oct. 27. '18 as having a "red nose". The only problem is this victory is positively ID'd and the captured pilot was a Ltn d R. Kliefoth who was assigned to Jasta 19 which had -yellow- noses! Ah well, and so it goes. We can say conclusively that Voss did -not- have a silver triplane. There are numerous photos of F.I 103/17 which show it with the prototypical streaked camouflage used for just about all Fokker triplanes. If that's not good enough, there are numerous photos of F.I 102/17 which show it in the same streaked camo. These were the -only- two tripes available at the front until after October of '17 so we -know- that Voss's a/c had streaked, not silver, camo. So where does the 'silver' triplane come from? As best I can determine, it comes exclusively from McCudden's description of 56 sqn engaging a 'silver' triplane. (Ignoring the fact that Caldwell of 60 sqn described it as 'blue-grey'.) Well, my surmise is that someone concluded that if the photos showed 'streaked' and McCudden said 'silver', well then it must be 'streaked over silver' 'cause McCudden can't be wrong. Ignoring, of course, the possibility that McCudden caught an initial glint of sun off a castor oil slickened side and from then on in was too busy flinging his SE.5 around to worry about colors. Or the possibility that McCudden simply misremembered. In my humble opinion, this is a stretch. F.I 103/17 piloted by Werner Voss on 9/23/17 was streaked olive green over either doped fabric or undersurface blue, period. As were all other Fokker tripes ever built. As to the "yellow rudder - yellow cowl", we know -both- can't be yellow. There are photos which show both the cowl and the rudder and, whatever film was used, they are clearly different colors. If the orthochromatic (?) film was used which photographs yellow as dark, then both the rudder and the cowl would be dark. In the photos, only the cowl is dark - the tonal qualities of the rudder match the trim on the eisenkruzes. My guess is that the yellow cowl theory arose 'cause Jasta 10 used yellow as a Jasta color - not because of any concrete evidence that 103/17 actually had any yellow. As the photos can't -disprove- yellow ('cause of the way orthochromatic film photographs yellow) and, admittedly, some Jasta 10 a/c -did- have yellow cowls, the theory does have some attractiveness. But, 103/17 was assigned to Jasta 10 only for suitability trials - there is really no reason to assume a operational trials aircraft would be painted in Jasta colors. After all, it could be deemed unsuitable and sent back to the rear at any time. But, alas, I ramble. Bottom line is my best guess is streaked olive green over undersurface blue (my preference) or over doped fabric, on the upper surfaces, standard greyish blue on the undersiders dark olive cowls and wheel covers, white rudder. No yellow, no silver. Any place! Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "Cave ab homine unius libri!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:23:23 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Re: Subscribe Message-ID: <199602051323.IAA26842@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > Subscribe, Subscribe! > Thanks, > WhitPUSMC@AOL.com Subscription Information: Send requests to subscribe or unsubscribe to wwi-request@pease1.sr.unh.edu. This is done by the listproc mailing list software automaticly. You will receive confirmation of your transaction via e-mail. Some important commands are: subscribe wwi Your_Real_Name unsubscribe wwi review wwi - shows who is subscribed information wwi - get information about the list help - get a much more detailed file about listproc commands end ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:11:26 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Update 4 Message-ID: <199602051411.JAA27067@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Here's update 4 from Edward. > Update on bidding. > > > **** > THE GERMAN GIANTS - STORY OF THE "R" PLANES 1914-1919 > **** > This book was up for sale at a set price initially, after it was posted, > there were so many responses that I put the book up for bid. There is a > smoke stain down the side of the paper edges, the book is still in fine > condition. > > THE GERMAN GIANTS - THE GERMAN "R" PLANES 1914-1918 > G.W. HADDOW & PETER M. GROSZ > 310 PAGES > 1962 > PICTURES/PLANS/CHARTS/SPECS/TEXT/WAR HISTORY > HARDBACK > > Current Bidders are: > > $25.00 Gerald P. McOsker > $50.00 Michel.Lefort@ping.be (Michel Lefort) > $55.00 Joseph R. Boeke" > --Gone... > To Joseph R. Boeke ... > > > **** > MARINE AIRCRAFT OF THE 1914-1918 WAR > **** > This book was up for sale at a set price initially, after it was posted, > there were so many responses that I put the book up for bid. There is a > SLIGHT smoke stain down the side of the paper edges, the book is still in > fine condition. > > MARINE AIRCRAFT OF THE 1914-1918 WAR > HARLEYFORD PUBLICATIONS LIMITED > 1966 > 210 PAGES > TEXT, PICTURES, PLANS > SMOKE STAIN ON SIDE > > $50.00 Michel.Lefort@ping.be (Michel Lefort) > $75.00 agrafix@ix.netcom.com (Richard G. Ivansek ) > $90.00 Joseph R. Boeke" > --Gone... > To Joseph R. Boeke > > Edward :) > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:35:44 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Artwork Message-ID: <199602051435.JAA27190@pease1.sr.unh.edu> I hope everyone will forgive me for posting a non-modeling post here. This weekend I bought 2 prints at a local Antiques store and I was wondering if anyone had any info on what I bought. Both are by Alfred Ouiles and are prints similar to those you'd buy from the ads in Avaition History magazine or similar. They were framed and matted nicely and I can only assume they were bought that way. The subjects are: Print 1: Coleshaw's Black Maria Tripe attacking Lt. Karl Degelow's Green and White striped Albatros D-Va. Viewed from behind Coleshaw's head looking through the wings of the tripe at the banking Albatros. In the background are a flaming D-Va, an all red D-Va and another Sopwith Tripe. Print 2: a DH-2 (#4) chasing an Albatros D-V (a?) with Light Tan/clear doped tail, green fuselage with red stripe in front of the fuselage cross marking on white stripe background. Red triangle on the nose of the plane. Losenge top surface, green under surface of both wings. Questions: Any idea what albatros is in print #2? Any Idea the vintage/origins/value of these prints? Any info about the artist and other things he did would be appreciated. I paid $300 for the pair which I consider a fair deal since new prints similar to these go for $250 each as advertised in the back of Avaition Hiostory magazine. Oh, the prints are large, about 24" x 36" Thanks, Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | I'm not left handed either! - The Man in Black University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling Mosaic Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:35:52 -0800 (PST) From: Erik Pilawskii To: wwi Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport - cone de penetration Message-ID: Ok, Yooz Gais, Since no one else is volunteering.... I have a copy of "Great Figher Aircraft" at home that features a John Weal cutaway drawing of an N.17 with the cone affixed. When I get home I'll examine the thing and see how it's hooked up. My initial guess is that there's a shaft going through the propeller mounting lug (and, thus, the rotary) to fit inside the crankshaft (or, may we call this a propeller 'boss'?) But, we'll see.... Erik :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "I should have thought that the introduction to the Front of the BE.2c was a tremendous boon in the work of aerial observation-- one could easily follow the trail of their wreckage straight back to any Hun aerodrome...." A.T.Magnuson, M.P. .............................................................................. ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 23 ********************