WWI Digest 199 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: The League of World War I Aviation Historians by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 2) Re: Dayton Fly-In by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 3) Re: The League of World War I Aviation Historians by "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" 4) Re: Chapman's plane by "Douglas R. Jones" 5) 22 July 1916, Buc by u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu 6) RE: 22 July 1916, Buc by "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" 7) RE: 22 July 1916, Buc by u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu 8) RE: 22 July 1916, Buc by "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" 9) Re: Dayton Fly-In by bucky@postoffice.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 10) Re: Dayton Fly-In by cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) 11) RE: 22 July 1916, Buc by Erik Pilawskii 12) Re: Rhinebeck/East Coast Chapter by bucky@postoffice.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) 13) Re: Dayton Fly-In by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 14) Austro-Hungarian Aircraft Colors by Alberto Rada 15) RE: 22 July 1916, Buc by Alberto Rada 16) Re: Dayton Fly-In by Robert Johnson 17) RE: 22 July 1916, Buc by "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" 18) Re: Dayton Fly-In by cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) 19) Re: Dayton Fly-In by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 20) Re: Rhinebeck/East Coast Chapter by djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) 21) Re: Dayton Fly-In by bciciora@wwa.com 22) Re: Dayton Fly-In by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 23) Re: Some stuff for that *other* scale by gspring@ix.netcom.com (Greg Springer) 24) Re: Dayton Fly-In by cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) 25) RE: British Aircraft Camouflage by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 26) Re: by breuer@itz-koeln.de (Dietmar Breuer) 27) 22 July 1916, Buc by u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu 28) Re: WW1 in perspective by GRBroman@aol.com 29) WWI in the Air (23 Jul 1916) by u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu 30) Hello Mr. Wright (Paul K. Guillow). (fwd) by aew (Allan Wright) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:51:10 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: The League of World War I Aviation Historians Message-ID: >> >> >>Hey, if you enjoy modeling in our era, then you should subscribe. >>Sure, some of you feel the same about C&CI, but the advantage of OtF >>versus C&CI is that there are more items geared towards modeling. >>Take the latest issue, for example. >> >>Greg's article on the Halberstadt CL.II is a *must* for anyone >>building this plane, and the League of Modelers article on the >>Hanriot HD.1 is a nice companion to other items already out on this >>aircraft. Plus, the color plates on the back cover of three HD.1's >>are really great, and helpful if you can't find the right scheme to >>finish it in. <<>>> >> >> >>Matt, please provide me with information on how to subscribe to this >publication. > >Thank you, > >Joe OVER THE FRONT subscriptions are US$ 42.00 per year Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:57:02 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: Carlos notes: > I got back from Dayton last night and thought I'd offer a brief >report. > This was my first trip to the USAH Museum, and I had a great >time. While not all of the aircraft were easily accessible--some were >hanging from the ceiling--this place is a must for anyone interested in >aviation. The WWI section is good, but I was miffed that the repro Dr.I >and the real SPAD XVI and Halb. CL.IV were not at ground level. The >museum shops had some good, affordable prints on several WWI subjects, a >few of which I picked up. The bookstore also is nicely stocked, although >one would not find any rare ietms there. This is a destination for everyone on this list, a splendid museum. As for your lament on the lack of rare books in the bookstore I'll put this in perspective. The USAF Museum is the #1 tourist destination in all of Ohio, and there are a lot of people in that part of the midwest. I used to live just down the road from the museum and on many visits I never found much in the way of rare stuff either. So how did you like the new reproduction Fokker D-VII ? Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu (former Ohio resident) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 14:16:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" To: wwi Subject: Re: The League of World War I Aviation Historians Message-ID: <960722141635.202aee0a@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> Hi, Please allow me to clarify the recent message: >>Matt, please provide me with information on how to subscribe to this >publication. > >Thank you, > >Joe OVER THE FRONT subscriptions are US$ 42.00 per year * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Actually, annual dues are $37.00 (which includes 4th Class mailing) First Class and Air Mail rates are available from our membership secretary. Also meant to mention last time that, while we do not pay for articles, artwork, photos, etc., The League *does* offer research grants to help members gain access to materials, visit archives, etc. These grants are made possible by generous benefactors and are *not* funded by subscriptions. Again, anyone who wants a League brochure (or a bunch for the local hobby shop, etc.) has only to send me his/her/their snail-mail address and I'll send 'em off before you can say Rittmeister Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen. Peter Kilduff Publicity Director e-mail: KILDUFF@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 13:38:01 -0500 From: "Douglas R. Jones" To: wwi Subject: Re: Chapman's plane Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960722183801.35b7a7dc@deimos.tx.iex.com> At 11:31 PM 7/21/96 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone on this list know anything more about the evidence that Chapman had >a "C" on his Nieuport, and which machine it was, the "80", the "110", or both? >Would it be possible for some good photos of the Rhinebeck replica of Chapman's >plane to be included in the photo archives of the Website? I am attending the Rhinebeck Jamboree on September 7th and 8th. I will try and dig up where they got their info at that time. Unless, of course, someone posts the data first! I have some photos of the plane showing the side view etc. The plane is cream in color with a black C on the fuse side. The flying surfaces are outlined in black. My photos also show the structure of the nose as all the panels were off. In addition I have photos of the LeRhone that came off this plane. It was stripped down for rework. All of these could be added to the web site if Allan is agreeable. Plus I will get more while I am there in September. Doug -------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (214)301-1307 | djones@iex.com -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:42:15 -0400 From: u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu To: wwi Subject: 22 July 1916, Buc Message-ID: <199607222042.QAA22642@ns1.dmsc.net> Fair day but very warm. Flying in early a.m. but wind stopped work before I could get up. Took bath & washed clothes later and slept after dinner. Terribly lonely these days for darling Getty. God grant we'll be true to each other forever and give her to me for my life mate. Letter from Miss H. Harper. No flying on account of wind in late p.m. Had supper in Buc with fellows afterwards. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:34:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" To: wwi Subject: RE: 22 July 1916, Buc Message-ID: <960722163438.202b9246@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> Whose diary is this? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:53:01 -0400 From: u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: 22 July 1916, Buc Message-ID: <199607222053.QAA22692@ns1.dmsc.net> On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" wrote: > Whose diary is this? AN AMERICAN FOR LAFAYETTE: THE DIARIES OF E.C.C. GENET, LAFAYETTE ESCADRILLE (Charlottesville, University Press of Virginia, 1981) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:47:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" To: wwi Subject: RE: 22 July 1916, Buc Message-ID: <960722164701.202b9246@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> Thanks. It's been a long time since I've read any of that material. Matter of fact, I got started on the whole WW I aviation thing in the summer of 1956 when I read "The Falcons of France" by Nordhoff and Hall. I used to think this was all very exciting stuff (after all, it was only a few years after reading about US Air Force and Navy pilots battling in "MiG Alley" over\ Korea). Now that I have children who are the ages of these various luminaries or older, I see much more of the sadness of the waste of young lives. Maybe the credo of the ages should be: Make models, not war! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:59:32 -0400 (EDT) From: bucky@postoffice.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: <199607222059.QAA22777@ns1.ptd.net> At 11:04 AM 7/22/96 -0400, Carlos Valdes wrote: >Hey guys, > I got back from Dayton last night and thought I'd offer a brief >report. ......... Sorry I wasn't able to make it. How did the Caproni look? It was one of my favorite memories from the last time I was there. Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 17:32:42 EDT From: cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: <199607222132.RAA10718@conted.swann.gatech.edu> Mike, Charles, et al., The Caproni was great, sitting in the middle of the WWI area under a Caquot ballon. Because of its size it could not be placed in the middle of the area and thus could not be seen from every angle, but it is certainly an impressive sight. As for the D.VII, well, let me just say that I was ready to grab it and take it home with me! (Of course, it would have been tough to walk out of the museum with it. . . .) This is a beautiful reproduction, though some of the details are off: five color fabric, silver/white rib tapes, etc. Still, it's a great addition, displayed in a well-lighted area next to a SPAD X.III and a repro P-26, which is very impressive itself. A gallery on the second allows one to overlook this area and take good photos. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 14:43:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Erik Pilawskii To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: 22 July 1916, Buc Message-ID: > Maybe the credo of the ages should be: Make models, not war! > Peter, What a beautiful sentiment-- if only we could get these 1:1 scale political bozos to listen up!! OTOH, perhaps we should limit all politicians to 1:144 ....<:^/ (1:350?) Cheers, Erik :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "Look-- if I went 'round, sayin' I was an Emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!..." .............................................................................. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 17:22:08 -0400 (EDT) From: bucky@postoffice.ptd.net (Mary-Ann/Michael) To: wwi, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Rhinebeck/East Coast Chapter Message-ID: <199607222122.RAA28627@ns1.ptd.net> At 02:32 PM 7/22/96 -0400, Douglas R. Jones wrote: > >I am attending the Rhinebeck Jamboree on September 7th and 8th. I will try >and dig up where they got their info at that time. Unless, of course, >someone posts the data first! OK, so I missed Dayton. Now I find out there is something at Rhinebeck in September. That's only 2 1/2 hours away. What can you tell me about it? I've been up there 2 times and love the place. On a similar note to all the info burning up the screens on OTF, some people this way have organized an East Coast Chapter. We meet 3-4 times a year and convince ourselves that just because we are the only ones in our neighborhood who are interested in the stuff doesn't mean we're crazy .(Doesn't mean we're sane, either). Dues are around $20/year. There's a small newsletter that comes out irregularly 3-4 x a year.We've met at different places over the last few years: Princeton Airport, Scenic South Amboy NJ, The restoration facility at Garber, etc. We were lucky enough to have George Cronin, a pilot in Italy who flew Capronis come to one meeting and talk about his war-time experiences. Next meeting is at Rhinebeck(See how cleverly these two topics come together?!?) on Aug. 11 at 12:00. If anyone is interested, just contact Randy Gaulke at 201-538-3650 for info. Mike Muth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:13:40 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: Carlos reported: > As for the D.VII, well, let me just say that I was ready to >grab it and take it home with me! (Of course, it would have been tough >to walk out of the museum with it. . . .) This is a beautiful >reproduction, though some of the details are off: five color fabric, >silver/white rib tapes, etc. Still, it's a great addition, displayed in >a well-lighted area next to a SPAD X.III and a repro P-26, which is very >impressive itself. A gallery on the second allows one to overlook this >area and take good photos. Why do you regard the 5-color lozenge fabric as incorrect for this aircraft? It is my understanding that the reason that the reproduction represents an OAW built machine was in order for it to correctly use the German made 5-color lozenge reproduction fabric. Looking at photographs the trend appears to be that Fokker built machines are predominantly covered with the 4-color material, other contractors appeared to use the 5-color fabric. However, being dogmatic is dangerous, so consult your photos. I too have a quibble with the silver rib tapes on the USAFM repro. Lozenge fabric tapes would have looked much better in my view. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 18:57:58 -0400 (AST) From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: Austro-Hungarian Aircraft Colors Message-ID: <199607222257.SAA05574@fw.true.net> WW I Austro - Hungarian Army Aircraft Camouflage Misc.- " ( v ) " = variant of typical color; " ~ " = approximation of color Camouflage Use Color Name Item No. Floquil Item Name autumn leaf mottle ( ~ ) mustard yellow 110166 UP ARMOUR YELLOW autumn leaf mottle med. Green 110256 CN GREEN # 12 autumn leaf mottle; lozegne: light,dk. Wing terra cotta 818680 YELLOW ORCHE lozegne: dark fuselage olive 303361 SOVIET KHAKI # 2 lozegne: dark fuselage Prussian blue 818688 MIDSHIP BLUE lozegne: isolated pale turquoise 303251 GER.LT.BLUE( 76 ) lozegne: light fuselage pale gray 303222 I.J.A. LT. GRAY lozegne light wing orange gray 303099 WEBBING lozegne light wing blue 303155 BR. AZURE BLUE Phonix swirl pattern ( ~ ) med. Dk. Brown 110133 SP ARMOUR YELLOW Phonix swirl pattern med. Dk. Brown 303145 BR. DK EARTH Phonix swirl pattern dk. Green 303220 I.J.A. GREEN plain finish color dope 110085 ANTIQUE WHITE plain finish color dope 110178 ATSF YELLOW serrated; wavy; geographic ( ~ ) gray-yellow 110310 TTX YELLOW serrated; wavy; geographic dark green 303135 FR. KHAKI solid area pattern; lozegne: isolated ( ~ ) bluish-gray 818704 DECKHOUSE BLUE streaked pattern ( ~ ) med. Dk. Brown 110073 RUST streaked pattern light tan 818626 PANAMA BUFF A/N507 Saludos Alberto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 19:20:59 -0400 (AST) From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: RE: 22 July 1916, Buc Message-ID: <199607222320.TAA05815@fw.true.net> At 04:45 PM 7/22/96 -0400, you wrote: > Thanks. It's been a long time since I've read any of that material. >Matter of fact, I got started on the whole WW I aviation thing in the summer >of 1956 when I read "The Falcons of France" by Nordhoff and Hall. I used to >think this was all very exciting stuff (after all, it was only a few years >after reading about US Air Force and Navy pilots battling in "MiG Alley" over\ >Korea). Now that I have children who are the ages of these various luminaries >or older, I see much more of the sadness of the waste of young lives. > Maybe the credo of the ages should be: Make models, not war! > You are so right, I enjoy so much the peace and camaraderie you breathe in this group, even with the 1/78 chaps; we owe a lot to those young guys and their love for flight. Saludos Alberto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 17:36:01 +0000 From: Robert Johnson To: wwi Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: <9607221731.aa17826@scosysv.speechsys.com> Carlos writes: > As for the D.VII, . . . . some of the details are off: five color fabric, > silver/white rib tapes, etc. As Charles will no doubt point out, the lozenge is accurate for a non-Fokker-built machine. Rob, robj@speechsys.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 21:16:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "PETER KILDUFF, UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, 21791" To: wwi Subject: RE: 22 July 1916, Buc Message-ID: <960722211627.202aec6b@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> Thanks, Alberto. I'll toast that sentiment -- maybe with an Elliott White Springs "egg nog"! If there is any doubt about why some of the early fliers drank so much -- just think about the daily routine of going up in a powered kite, with some other equally zealous adversary looking to add you to his score. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 22:07:38 EDT From: cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: <199607230207.WAA11064@conted.swann.gatech.edu> Charles, I got my info on Stark's D.VII mainly from a friend who has been studying his various machines. According to this source, Stark's OAW-built D.VII, 4523/18, was covered in four-color lozenge fabric. In addition, according to Wally Tripp in WWI Aero 102, all OAW D.VII from s/n 2000/18 through about 8507/18 used four-color fabric. I am very interested in the subject of D.VII finishes and would welcome any further information or corrections. Three more odd bits about the USAFM D.VII: the wheels were covered in lozenge fabric, but they were then partly overpainted in green in an attempt to reproduce the standard Fokker practice employed with plain fabric wheel covers. It seems unusual to overpaint lozenge fabric in this manner. And would the various struts really have been painted in a bright light green? Finally, the stripes on the lower surfaces of the bottom wing are black on the museum's D.VII, but according to my source, Stark depicted them as white in his post-war paintings of the aircraft. Once again, any information on this matter would be appreciated. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 19:51:05 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: <199607230251.AA26741@ednet1.orednet.org> Charles wrote: > Why do you regard the 5-color lozenge fabric as incorrect for this >aircraft? It is my understanding that the reason that the reproduction >represents an OAW built machine was in order for it to correctly use the >German made 5-color lozenge reproduction fabric. Looking at photographs >the trend appears to be that Fokker built machines are predominantly >covered with the 4-color material, other contractors appeared to use the >5-color fabric. However, being dogmatic is dangerous, so consult your >photos. I too have a quibble with the silver rib tapes on the USAFM repro. >Lozenge fabric tapes would have looked much better in my view. I agree with Charles on the 4-color/5-color lozenge fabric question. But I don't have too much of a quibble with the silver rib tapes. While tapes of lozenge fabric were probably the most common on the D.VII's, clearly a substantial number of 'em had rib tapes of a light contrasting color - while I've seen some references to these light tapes being light blue as opposed to silver-gray, I'm not sure anyone really knows for sure. Indeed, both light blue -and- silver gray could have been used for that matter. I've tried to relate these light-colored rib tapes to manufacturer but without much success - the seem more common on OAW-built aircraft but I'll be danged if I can determine any real pattern here. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "There are not enough Indians in the country to whip the Seventh Cavalry!" -George Armstrong Custer- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:00:22 -0500 From: djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) To: wwi Subject: Re: Rhinebeck/East Coast Chapter Message-ID: <9607230302.AA07112@deimos.tx.iex.com> > OK, so I missed Dayton. Now I find out there is something at >Rhinebeck in September. That's only 2 1/2 hours away. What can you tell me >about it? I've been up there 2 times and love the place. Don't miss it if you can help it! We have a ball. Lots of really nice WWI R/C models flying all day Saturday and Sunday up to the full scale show. There are usually some really nice models flying! There is a Free Flight Rubber powered model launch in Cole's honor each morning at 7:30am. The full scale shows go on as planned each day. Plus they roll the planes out early each day for folks to look at and take photos. Never been denied access to a hanger or plane for documentation purposes! It's the highlight of my year! Doug -------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (214)301-1307 | djones@iex.com -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 22:21 CDT From: bciciora@wwa.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 96 11:04:14 EDT Carlos wrote: > The fly-in itself was a bit disappointing. In terms of numbers > of both A/C and vendors, it did not match Aerodromes 92 and 94. Still, > it was great to see the planes in the air, specially the repro Dr.I, > F2b, and Pup and the REAL Thomas Morse scout. (BTW, one of my traveling > companions--who knew the pilot--got us close to the Bristol, and he even > got a ride in it! Lucky dog.) Besides the above, the only other flying > A/C there were a quartet of 7/8 scale SE5a's Did you notice that one of those SE5s had *French* cockades? Someone went to all the trouble of building a replica, then screwed the pooch on those markings! I was at the show Sunday, which was more disappointing, as weather was coming in and those pilots wanted to get out. The Bristol had to fly all the way to Nashville, I think; five fuel stops and two days of flying. I didn't see any flour bombing or any other events, but it was still fun to see those planes. Here's hoping they get a better turnout in two years. Bill C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 20:43:48 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: <199607230343.AA17316@ednet1.orednet.org> Carlos wrote: >And would the various struts really have been painted in a >bright light green? Well, I don't know about the exact shade but I think Jasta 15 used green struts. Possibly some other Jastas as well although my listing on Jasta markings is loaned out right now. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "There are not enough Indians in the country to whip the Seventh Cavalry!" -George Armstrong Custer- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 20:59:26 -0700 From: gspring@ix.netcom.com (Greg Springer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Some stuff for that *other* scale Message-ID: <199607230359.UAA22642@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> Matt hath asked: >Does anybody know if a SPAD 12 is made in 1/72nd - or, what >conversion is necessary? Was the only difference the cannon/gun in >the nose? The fuselage is different from the XIII. More shallow like a VII but not quite the same. The engine is geared with the gear casing protruding upwards between the vee of the cylinder banks and the Puteaux gun barrel lying between the banks to fire through the prop hub. As a result the engine is mounted lower in the fuselage and the exhaust pipes come out of the fuselage lower than on the VII or XIII. The carburetor is relocated to below the oil pan! See Harry Woodman's book 'Early Aircraft Armament' p. 215. The wings, which are the same as the early round-tipped XIIIs are staggered, upper wing forward. Because the gun breech extended back into the cockpit so far, the stick was replaced with a Deperdussin control (a wheel mounted on a two-legged yoke). There is a famous film clip of Guynemer showing a general around his XII and in that film you can see the 'Dep control' in the cockpit. This is a _major_conversion! A complete new fuselage at least. I notice that the price is TBA. I bet it will be rather high. I can hardly wait to get my mitts on one. I feel it's the best looking of all the SPAD variants. In other related news, the erudite Herr Fauchon has pointed out my lamentable German grammar. I confused 'ober' with 'oben'. Alas it has been many years since I had the chance to practice and now I hang out with a bunch of Flemish speakers. Sch"ame mich! I hereby sentence myself to watching a solid week of boring Deutche Welle TV. Cheers! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 0:00:59 EDT From: cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) To: wwi Subject: Re: Dayton Fly-In Message-ID: <199607230401.AAA11181@conted.swann.gatech.edu> A correction to my last post: the WWI Aero info on OAW fabric came from Dan-San Abbott. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 96 16:10:00 EDT From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: RE: British Aircraft Camouflage Message-ID: <199607230632.QAA14634@mimmon.mim.com.au> While I was away Alberto posted: (Some snips for space) >WW I British Aircraft Camouflage > >" ( v ) " = variant of typical color >" ~ " = approximation of color > >Color Name Item No. Floquil Item Name > >PC12 110601 ZINC CHROMATE PRIMER I don't know offhand about the others but this seems VERY unlikely to me. PC12 was a concoction of Red Ochre and Lamp Black pigments giving a dark red-brown colour which would be most unlikely to look anything like any Zinc Chromate primer I ever saw. Nevertheless, thanks Alberto for the considerable work on the French colours which Iquite enjoyed. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:38:52 +0100 (WET DST) From: breuer@itz-koeln.de (Dietmar Breuer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Message-ID: <199607230638.HAA01943@ns.itz-koeln.de> Stuart L. Malone wrote: > >According to Alex Imrie in "Fokker Fighters of World War One", the=20 >Fokker DI used the 120 HP Mercedes. The DII and DIII were Oberursel=20 >powered, and the DIV used the 160 HP Mercedes. > The Gray/Thetford 'Bible', lists the following as powered by the=20 >Mercedes DII 120HP inline 6: > Albatros BII (late)/BIIa/BIII > Halberstadt DII > LVG BII (some) > AEG BII/BIII > Aviatik BII > DFW BII (some) > Euler BIII > Fokker M16E > Fokker M18Z (DI) > Fokker V6 (cool!) > Fokker V8 (WAY cool!) > Friedrichshafen FF29 > Goedecker B > Gotha LD 7 > Gotha WD7 (two) > Halberstadt BIII (some) > Halberstadt DV (some) > Junkers J1 (also designated E1, not to be confused with JI) > Kondor W1 > Kondor BI > LVG BIII > LVG D10 (another WAY cool!) > LVG EI >=09 >This is by no means complete or without errors. Just a listing compiled=20 >from "German Aircraft of the First World War", by Peter Gray and Owen=20 >Thetford. > >After browsing through it, anyone try scratching a Gotha GVII (Steve)? > > Happy Modeling. > In additon to these planes I found another three but there might be more: Euler BI Otto BI (some) Friedrichshaven FF 33a found in "Die deutschen Militaerflugzeuge 1910-1918" , by Kroschel and= Stuetzer=20 Lohse-Eissing, Wilhemshaven 1977. Dietmar=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Dietmar Breuer =20 Informationstechnik-Zentrum K=F6ln Eupener Stra=DFe 150 50933 K=F6ln Tel: 0221 - 49707 24 =20 Fax: 0221 - 49707 12 EMail: breuer@itz-koeln.de =20 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:58:26 -0400 From: u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu To: wwi Subject: 22 July 1916, Buc Message-ID: <199607231058.GAA26859@ns1.dmsc.net> Dreary day and rainy. Out for work early a.m. but wind prevented flying. Wrote to Mrs Parker in a.m. Didn't feel good today. Letter to Cousin Eleanor. Rec'd letters from dear little Mother. Says Rod was on his way to Mexican Border (July 5th). Rec'd package of cigarettes & majazine from Miss Harper & Lee [illegible]. No flying in p.m. on account of wind. Went down to Aviatic Hotel near here, had dinner in cafe beside it and then went to hotel for the evening. Played piano & had great time. Lot of the fellows there. Didn't get back to school until after midnight. Rather tired out. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:13:01 -0400 From: GRBroman@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: WW1 in perspective Message-ID: <960723071300_162186406@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-07-22 06:16:23 EDT, you write: >The antipodeans suffered quite seriously in terms of percentage >population. I don't know the figures for Australia but from memory >New Zealand turned in a voluntary enlistment rate of 40% of those >eligible. I often wondered how many of these were just people like me >wanting to get away and see the world..... > > I went back to college after my first stint in the Army on the old Vietnam GI Bill. I belonged to a Veterans Fraternity that was formed after WW I by a group of wounded and disabled vets called Apres le Guerre. Looking at the Roll of Honor from the WW I yeras which included all casualties from the University, I was struck by just how many died in France from the great Influenza epidemic. Over half died from the flu in French hospitals. One in particular stays in my memory. "Shot down in flames over St. Mihiel, September 1918." I am reading an excellent book called Tank Commander about a young subaltern at the start of the Great War who survives the early battles and ends up in the Heavy Branch of the Machine Gun Corps at the Somme. Excellent read. It still amazes me how they were able to adapt. Human spirit is an amazing thing. Glen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:21:13 -0400 From: u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu To: wwi Subject: WWI in the Air (23 Jul 1916) Message-ID: <199607231321.JAA27189@ns1.dmsc.net> These have started to appear on the OTHER WWI list-- thought you joes might be interested. Bradley <---- Begin Forwarded Message ----> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: wwi-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu From: Paul Silbermann To: WWI list Subject: WWI in the Air (23 Jul 1916) 7/23/1916 1 German aircraft attacks Belfort. Turkish aircraft attack Allied camp, installations, and fuel depot at Suez. _Aeronautics_ (London), 26 Jul 1916, p.60. German aircraft attack Belfort in reprisal for French attack on Mulheim (22 Jul). _Aeronautics_ (London), 26 Jul 1916, p.61. French aircraft attack rail station at Conflans, barracks nr Vigneulees, and barracks and aerodrome at Dieuze (all nr Verdun)(continuation of night attack of 22/23 Jul). _Aeronautics_ (London), 2 Aug 1916, p.77. "As I left the scene two ever-attendant aeroplanes were flying dangerously low through the morning mists in order to carry back to the authorities the lastest information from the patch of shredded brushwood on the brown, shell-scorched uplands on which our boys are at this moment making their great sacrifice for the ideal of the world." _Aeronautics_ (London), 2 Aug 1916, p.77. -- night of 23/24 Jul -- 1 German aircraft attacks Luneville. _Aeronautics_ (London), 2 Aug 1916, p.77. Austrian naval aircraft attack San Giorio and Monfalcone. _Aeronautics_ (London), 2 Aug 1916, p.78. -- Claims -- French aircraft claim 2 German aircraft shot down - 1 nr Fresnes-en-Woevre (2Lt. Chaput, 8th); 1 nr Fort Vaux. _Aeronautics_ (London), 2 Aug 1916, p.77. -- British Losses -- * BE2c No.? (No.15 Sqn) hit by shell fire KIA: Settle, 2Lt. R. W. (RFC) (pilot not injured ?) Trevor Henshaw, _The Sky Their Battlefield_ (London: Grubb Street, 1995), p.97; _Aeronautics_ (London), 1/3/1917, p.32. * Martinsyde G100 No.7296 (No.27 Sqn) hit by gunfire s of Albert WIA: Hogarth, 2Lt. F. G. Henshaw, p.97. -- German Losses (incomplete listing) -- KIA/DOW: Brautigam, Ltn. Walter (GAS (2.Chev.R.)) _Unsere Luftstreitkrafte 1914-18_ (Berlin: Vaterlandischer Verlag C.A. Weller, 1930) **************** WWI in the Air (23 Jul 1916) ***************** <---- End Forwarded Message ----> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:14:06 -0400 (EDT) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Hello Mr. Wright (Paul K. Guillow). (fwd) Message-ID: <199607231314.JAA05867@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Forwarded message: >From speed@eos.eos.net Tue Jul 23 08:06:15 1996 Message-Id: <31F4C085.891@eos.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:07:33 -0400 From: Martin Speed Reply-To: speed@eos.eos.net Organization: Flying Circle Graphics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: aew@unh.edu Subject: Hello Mr. Wright (Paul K. Guillow). X-Url: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/1/aew/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Couldn't help but notice that area on your modeling page called "Help promote WWI model production!" Was wondering if you could get your readers to hound, er, motivate the Guillow's Co. through their e-mail address (guillow@aol.com--they don't seem to have a web site). You see, I attended the WWI Fly-In at the USAF Museum in Dayton this past weekend. Disappointment was all around among the many enthusiasts who can no longer buy the Series 100 planes. Guillow's kept cutting back on the variety of types they offered over the years, then eventually stopped their WWI line all together. Guillow's not only once offered the best value, they also offered the best quality kits. Their snail-mail address: Paul K. Guillow, Inc., P.O. Box 229, Wakefield, MA 01880-0329. Thanks. Also forwarded correspondence to you yesterday regarding a web page with possible .JPEG problems. -- -Martin Speed of Cincinnati, OH- You are cordially invited to visit my terrific web site: http://www2.eos.net/speed/ ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 199 *********************