WWI Digest 19 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) CFP: WWI Aviation Historians' Conference (fwd) by Erik Pilawskii 2) Re: Custom Photoetch & Decals by Jose Valenciano 3) Re: Administrivia by Jose Valenciano 4) RE: WWI Metalized French Colors by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 5) RE: WWI Metalized French Colors by "WILSON, TIMOTHY" 6) Re: Methuen Handbook of Colour by huggins@Onramp.NET (John Huggins) 7) Re: Latest FSM by "John P. Roll" 8) Re: Latest FSM by The Flying Wrench 9) Guynemer's Nieuport by The Flying Wrench 10) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport by bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) 11) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport by bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) 12) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport - addendum by The Flying Wrench 13) Re: Blue Max Kits? by t_eisen@ix.netcom.com (Thomas Eisenhour ) 14) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport by aew (Allan Wright) 15) Re: Latest FSM by Randy J Ray 16) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport - addendum by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 17) Re: Guynemer's Nieuport - addendum by The Flying Wrench ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:33:18 -0800 (PST) From: Erik Pilawskii To: ww1 mailer Subject: CFP: WWI Aviation Historians' Conference (fwd) Message-ID: Just thought I'd pass this along once more. CALL FOR PAPERS/PRESENTATIONS for the 1996 NATIONAL MEETING of the LEAGUE OF WORLD WAR I AVIATION HISTORIANS June 21-23, 1996 Washington, D.C. You are invited to submit an presentation for the 1996 National Meeting of the League of World War I Aviation Historians If your presentation is selected: You get the opportunity to contribute to an exciting field of aviation history. You increase your visibility and credibility. You will receive up to $300.00 reimbursement for expenses and participation. You will share an unforgettable experience with fellow aviation enthusiasts. Proposals must reach the Meeting Organizing Committee by February 25th, 1996 Call for presentations: The 1996 National Meeting of the League of World War I Aviation Historians is being hosted by the Atlantic Coast Chapter of the League of World War I Aviation Historians. The Meeting Organizing Committee and the Officers and Board of Directors of the League of World War I Aviation Historians invite you to submit a written presentation that can be developed into a session for the Biennial National Meeting, June 21-23, 1996 in Washington D.C. The Meeting: The meeting is designed to bring together those with an interest in the aircraft, personalities, units, colors, relics and events of the 1914-1918 airwar. A substantial part of the program consists of slide presentations prepared and presented by members and recognized authorities from the community of World War I aviation enthusiasts. The Evaluation Process: Programming ideas will be evaluated on overall quality, relevance, well-defined focus, and perceived general interest of the topic to the membership of the League of World War I Aviation Historians. Responsibilities: It is the presenters responsibility to arrange their own travel and lodging. The League intends to reimburse speaker's expenses up to $300.00, intended to cover hotel, travel, and presentation preparation. The Meeting will be held at the Holiday Inn, Downtown, Washington, D.C. Further details will be printed in a future issue of the League journal, Over the Front. Presenters are also responsible for providing their own visual aids. A 35 mm slide projector and an overhead projector will be provided at the meeting. Arrangements for other presentation aids will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. If you have questions, e-mail or or write to Carl J. Bobrow LWWIAH 1996 Program Coordinator 1753 East 93rd Street Brooklyn, NY 11236-5411 Steps for Submitting Your Programming Idea: 1. Complete the attached application. 2. Submit a one page abstract of your presentation. 3. List the suggested title and format of your presentation. 4. Include a brief vita 5. Submit your application by Ferbruary 25th, 1996 ------------------------------------------------- PRESENTER APPLICATION Presenter name, address and phone numbers: Abstract of the topic to be covered: Learning Objectives (by the end of my session participants will be able to or will have learned): 1. 2. 3. I intend to provide a written paper available to my session and/or publication in the journal. ___Yes ___No The following visual aids are ____ required _____desired: Please provide a brief description of your work and/or activities with respect to World War I aviation: Please list references who are familiar with your research and/or activities: 1. Basis for reference: 2. Basis for reference: Additional comments (optional): ---------------------------------------------------------- Complete forms and return by Febuary 25th, 1996 via e-mail to or via U.S. Postal Service to Carl J. Bobrow LWWIAH 1996 Program Coordinator 1753 East 93rd Street Brooklyn, NY 11236-5411 ***************************************************** ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:59:10 +0800 (HKT) From: Jose Valenciano To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Custom Photoetch & Decals Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Joseph R. Boeke wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Charles Hart wrote: > > > Joe Boeke writes: > > > > >Has anyone had any custom photoetching or decals done? Any advice on > > >vendors, or on the process? What about cost? How cost prohibitive are > > >these methods? > > > > > Costs of such items would depend on whether you would do the art for > > these yourself or have someone do it for you. > > That is what I figured. I am perfectly happy to the art myself, I have > all of the tools I need (I hope) to produce the art (Adobe Illustrator & > references mainly). > > Thanks for the info. I can't believe how much they cost . I'll have to > see if there is any way I can sell the design to someone (or rethink my > plan). You know, come to think of it, entrepeneurs over here or in countries like the Philippines should get into these labor intensive endeavors. Could keep costs down a lot I imagine. ****************************************************************************** Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, sitarist joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:03:09 +0800 (HKT) From: Jose Valenciano To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Administrivia Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jan 1996, Allan Wright wrote: > Modelers, > > I've made some changes to the WWW page and the way the archive is handled. > Because we were above 3000 messages in the archive the threaded archive > viewer was a bit slow to come up. Therefore I've broken the 1994-1995 > posts into their own directory and starting in 1996 I'll give each year its > own directory. > > The search engine still works and will search the ENTIRE archive for any > regular expression. Also I've automated the archive so each day it will > automaticly be updated with the previous day's posts. You no longet have to > wait until I get around to updating it to see the latest posts. Thanks Allan this is excellent! I remember the time last October-November that I spent downloading the COMPLETE archive (ugh!). This will make it easier for the new guys who are as freaky as I. ****************************************************************************** Joey Valenciano WW1 modeller, teacher, jazz musician, sitarist joeyval@pusit.admu.edu.ph Metro-Manila, Philippines "The more you know, the more you don't know." ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: 01 Feb 96 11:57:00 EST From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: TXW%psulias.psu.edu@teksup.mim.com.au (Tim Wilson) Cc: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: RE: WWI Metalized French Colors Message-ID: <199602010214.MAA14285@mimmon.mim.com.au> Hi Tim, You ask: >A question: Were these colors treated the same way as the silver/grey >concoction found on Nieuports and similar aircraft? Does that mean if I >paint a 1/28th scale SPAD XIII, I should use these mixes as you've >indicated? >I'm kind of new at WWI modeling-- I've mainly done WWII in the past. The 5 colour cam scheme on French WW1 aircraft was indeed a series of dopes with aluminium powder suspended in them (for protection of the fabric against damage by UV light) in exactly the same way as most "silver dopes" However the "silver" or aluminium dopes are made with a clear(ish) dope carrier and the coloured ones with a pigmented dope carrier. There are a few things to note. 1. The metal parts were painted not doped, didn't need protection from light and consequently the colours (which were intended to match) are subtly different and NOT aluminised. 2. The black has no aluminium particles, since it was a near perfect protection anyway and aluminium powder adds weight. 3. If you have access to my notes/mixes on the www page experiment a litlle using a much lower portion of silver and adding it until YOU are satisfied. I have discovered that the metallic impression needs to be adjusted for scale and am sure that MY opinion will differ from others anyway. 4. The mixes are not mine originally, but the result of experiments to update research by Harry Woodman to account for the disappearance of paints he had chosen in favour of ones more widely available. If by any chance you don't have access to a browser and don't know what I'm on about, mail me and I'll send you the whole mess as text. One last thing > Does that mean if I >paint a 1/28th scale SPAD XIII, I should use these mixes as you've >indicated? I'd always hesitate to say you "should" do anything with a WW1 colour scheme, but IMHO using an aluminised paint will help capture the correct character as long as you keep it subtle. Good luck Shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:12:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "WILSON, TIMOTHY" To: wwi Subject: RE: WWI Metalized French Colors Message-ID: <01I0OAD16K8GADD6EO@psulias.psu.edu> Thanks for the info! I did see your comments on the Website run by Alan Wright, and have printed off the info. I hope I can find the correct color matches, as my Humbrol paints are long gone. I use mainly Model Master, which has a decidely modern inclination. I'll give it a try. Regards, T. Wilson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:43:08 -0600 (CST) From: huggins@Onramp.NET (John Huggins) To: wwi Subject: Re: Methuen Handbook of Colour Message-ID: >>On 30 Jan 96 at 11:41, Charles Hart typed diligently: >> >>> If anyone on this list goes a lookin' for this book, I for one would >>> be interested in learning of your progress (or lack thereof) in this quest. >>> GOOD LUCK. >> > to which Matt replied: > >>Or, what are the chances of someone scanning the one the have, for >>inclusion on the web page? Maybe a page a .gif, or some such? Just >>a thought. >> > > Well, you could do such a thing and post it on the web. Then you >would have umpteen dozens of downloads to as many different color monitors, >each set to a slightly different interpretation of a color, thus a >"standard" color will be given many representations, none of which match >the original. > > Color theorist Josef Albers put it this way: You could ask a room full >of 30 people to think of the color red and they would think of 30 >different reds. You could then say the words Coca Cola, and while they >would all have the same logo in their collective minds, they would still >be thinking of 30 different reds. > > I think the two scenarios are analogous. > Did anyone think about copyright laws? I do believe this book does have a copyright. Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 22:24:48 -0600 From: "John P. Roll" To: wwi Subject: Re: Latest FSM Message-ID: <3110408a58a3002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> In message <199601301635.LAA28213@pease1.sr.unh.edu> writes: > > Well, the latest FSM with their 'net article is out. Don't know > > about the rest, but I'm a bit disappointed. It was great that the > > home page URL was included, but there were no pictures, and no info > > on subscribing to the list. Bummer. > > I haven't seen the new FSM yet, but if what Matt says is true I a bit > pissed off. I offered to do an extensive article for them not only on > my page but modeling on the net with screen captures of the pages, etc. > It's too bad they had to do a half-adssed job when I specificly offered > to to a top-notch one for them for free. > > -Al IMHO, you and all of us have cause to be PO'd! In addition, If I were Dave Klaus, I'd be a little mad, too. He has advertised his URL for at least 1 month and he isn't even mentioned - but Squadron is! I wonder why? John Roll j-roll@maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:40:46 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Latest FSM Message-ID: <199602010440.TAA13739@anchor> At 11:23 PM 1/31/96 -0500, John P. Roll wrote: >In message <199601301635.LAA28213@pease1.sr.unh.edu> writes: >> > Well, the latest FSM with their 'net article is out. Don't know >> > about the rest, but I'm a bit disappointed. It was great that the >> > home page URL was included, but there were no pictures, and no info >> > on subscribing to the list. Bummer. >> >> I haven't seen the new FSM yet, but if what Matt says is true I a bit >> pissed off. I offered to do an extensive article for them not only on >> my page but modeling on the net with screen captures of the pages, etc. >> It's too bad they had to do a half-adssed job when I specificly offered >> to to a top-notch one for them for free. >> >> -Al > >IMHO, you and all of us have cause to be PO'd! In addition, If I were Dave >Klaus, I'd be a little mad, too. He has advertised his URL for at least 1 month >and he isn't even mentioned - but Squadron is! I wonder why? > Could it be the two page advert they frequently run in FSM? Hmmmm I wonder. Money talks - you know the rest. "The Flyin' Wrench" Damn the torpedos, I'm having a beer. Navy jg ring knocker in response to a rocket attack in Vietnam. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:56:48 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu. Subject: Guynemer's Nieuport Message-ID: <199602010456.TAA14346@anchor> The Flyin' Wrench inquires: I am considering starting my Hobby Craft Nieuport and was wondering as to the correct color scheme the kit's scheme is suspect as I have never seen it anywhere else and most pubs have his SPAD but never mention his Nie.17 Can I get a few tips on this? Also any detailing tricks or traps would bre greatly appreciated. Is there any more WWI subjects in Hobby Craft's future? 1/32 is the perfect size and I find Hobby Craft puts out a pretty decent piece of plastic, especially for the money. "A grateful Wrench" Most of us know how to say nothing; few of us know when. Anon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:51:27 -0800 From: bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport Message-ID: <199602010551.AA29311@ednet1.osl.or.gov> > >The Flyin' Wrench inquires: > >I am considering starting my Hobby Craft Nieuport and was wondering as to >the correct color scheme the kit's scheme is suspect as I have never seen it >anywhere else and most pubs have his SPAD but never mention his Nie.17 Can >I get a few tips on this? Well, the Albatros Publications "Aces and Airplanes" special on Guynemer has some info on, and photos of, Nieuport 1550. For what it's worth, I'll quote the (copyrighted) description: "1550 was doped overall in aluminium with the uppersurfaces camouflaged in random patches of dull green and light brown. Photographs of this machine ... reveal that a large white numeral 2 was applied to the upper starboard mainplane and the camouflage colors completely covered the national markings. 1550 bears the famous stork markings of Escadrille N.3 on its fuselage along with a pennant on the rear decking behind the cockpit. Markings (i.e. the N.3 stork, the pennant, and the numeral 2 on the fuselage) are depicted in red but could have been black, tonal values of available photographs being difficult to evaluate. "Guynemer flew at least two other Nieuport 17's, one of which was 1331, similarly finished but bearing a different style of fuselage numerals and a black stork with a red beak, wing and tail feathers. These Nieuports do not appear to have the 'Vieus Charles' painted on their fuselages but 1331 featured black and white pennants carrying Guynemer's famous legend attached to the interplane struts." Two photos of 1550 are included in the book although, alas, none of 1331. Comparing the kit decals and painting instructions to the photos in the "Aces and Airplanes Special", it looks like Hobby Craft is pretty close to right - the major exception is that the stork insignia is not quite right for 1550, the stork's wing is wider and 'points' further to the rear in the decals than it appears in the photos. Perhaps the style of the N.3 insignia is correct for 1331 which might explain the two-colored stork included as an option. In any case, the remainder of the decals and instructions look pretty close to the photos although the tonal values on the photos are such that its tough to verify the suggested demarcation between the two wing top camouflage colors. Two other comments: 1550 definitely had a 'cone de penetration' (sp?) so you'll have to scratch-built one of those. Can't tell from the photos but the painted cover illustration in the "Aces and Airplanes Special" shows it in red and white as suggested in the kit instructions (nice of them to tell you how to paint a part they don't bother to include, eh?) 1550 had a weird, or at least non-standard windscreen - the box art on the kit suggests, but doesn't quite capture the shape of the windscreen - in the photos it appears taller and more vertical than in the box art. In any case, the kit windscreen won't do for 1550 Hope this helps - holler if ya' need more. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "You can crush a man with journalism." William Randolph Hearst ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:28:54 -0800 From: bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport Message-ID: <199602010728.AA12616@ednet1.osl.or.gov> A few additionaly comments as a follow up to my previous post on Guynemer's Nieu. 17 and the Hobby Craft kit. 1. The Hobby Craft kit depicts the starboard access cover as kinda a 'squished oval' - narrower on the top than on the bottom while the photos of Guynemer's 1550 show this access cover as perfectly oval. 2. The (I think) air intake pipe immediately in front of the access cover is closer to the access cover in the photos of 1550 than on the Hobby Craft kit - its tough to tell if the access cover is further forward or the pipe further aft but, in any case, there is only about three inches between the forward edge of the access cover and the pipe in the photos. The distance appears much greater on the Hobby Craft kit. (What is that pipe for, anyway?) 3. There is a little 'doohickey' mounted in the center of the upper wing on 1550. While this is not explained in the text any place, the text does mention that Guynemer did have a bracket for a camera mounted in that location on at least some of his SPAD's. Thus my surmise would be that the 'doohickey' on 1550 is a camera bracket as well. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - "You can crush a man with journalism." William Randolph Hearst ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:23:33 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport - addendum Message-ID: <199602010823.XAA23207@anchor> At 12:53 AM 2/1/96 -0500, Bill Shatzer wrote: > > >> >>The Flyin' Wrench inquires: >> >>I am considering starting my Hobby Craft Nieuport and was wondering as to >>the correct color scheme the kit's scheme is suspect as I have never seen it >>anywhere else and most pubs have his SPAD but never mention his Nie.17 Can >>I get a few tips on this? > >Well, the Albatros Publications "Aces and Airplanes" special on Guynemer >has some info on, and photos of, Nieuport 1550. Is this Data file or pub still available? >For what it's worth, I'll quote the (copyrighted) description: > >"1550 was doped overall in aluminium with the uppersurfaces camouflaged >in random patches of dull green and light brown. Photographs of this >machine ... reveal that a large white numeral 2 was applied to the >upper starboard mainplane and the camouflage colors completely covered >the national markings. 1550 bears the famous stork markings of Escadrille >N.3 on its fuselage along with a pennant on the rear decking behind the >cockpit. Markings (i.e. the N.3 stork, the pennant, and the numeral >2 on the fuselage) are depicted in red but could have been black, tonal >values of available photographs being difficult to evaluate. > >"Guynemer flew at least two other Nieuport 17's, one of which was 1331, >similarly finished but bearing a different style of fuselage numerals and >a black stork with a red beak, wing and tail feathers. These Nieuports >do not appear to have the 'Vieus Charles' painted on their fuselages but >1331 featured black and white pennants carrying Guynemer's famous >legend attached to the interplane struts." > >Two photos of 1550 are included in the book although, alas, none >of 1331. > >Comparing the kit decals and painting instructions to the photos in >the "Aces and Airplanes Special", it looks like Hobby Craft is pretty >close to right - the major exception is that the stork insignia is >not quite right for 1550, the stork's wing is wider and 'points' >further to the rear in the decals than it appears in the photos. > >Perhaps the style of the N.3 insignia is correct for 1331 which might >explain the two-colored stork included as an option. In any case, >the remainder of the decals and instructions look pretty close to the >photos although the tonal values on the photos are such that its tough >to verify the suggested demarcation between the two wing top >camouflage colors. Any FSN color comments as to the color tones for the brown and green And was the fuselage the classic French silver/grey of which we so often post? >Two other comments: >1550 definitely had a 'cone de penetration' (sp?) so you'll have to >scratch-built one of those. Can't tell from the photos but the >painted cover illustration in the "Aces and Airplanes Special" shows >it in red and white as suggested in the kit instructions (nice of them >to tell you how to paint a part they don't bother to include, eh?) It is odd to supply drawings of nonexistant kit compnents, but at least they show it. Spinners are not hard to cobble up. After all that is what Georges, Billy, Albert and the others did for spinners. I guess Nobby craft feels this scrounging lends to the realism factor, while costing them nothing. I have a book titled: "Aces and Aircraft of WWI". ( My kingdom for true type fonts) This volume has several photos of messer. Guynemer in front of a Nieuport with the spinner but I can't tell what version the Nie. it is. It has the upper wing cutouts of the (I can't find the reference but I believe it was a Nie.16), a round cowling with exhaust cutouts - speaking of which I guess these will have to cut out of the kit's cowling - and the standard single Vickers mounted on top of the cowling, in front of the pilot. I cannot see a Lewis mounted on the upper wing. There is another photo of a Nie.11 with the "Le VIEUX CHARLES" painted just under the cockpit coaming in large letters. Of course the color plate is his SPAD VII. What else? This brings up another question. What was the story on the colors of his Spa.VII? I have heard many different stories of how this odd brown and yellow color scheme came about. Natural linen and the wrong color yellow on the cowl. The front was simply in the shadow and therefore looked brown etc. The plate in this book shows a clear, brown to yellow demarcation line about 10 inches or so behind the cockpit just behind the last exhaust bracket with an odd three scallops issuing from the edge of the brown and pointing backward. Each scallop begins at one longeron and ends at the one below it. It appears that the artist was perhaps trying to show the shadow of the wing's scalloped edge, but the light source would have to be very strong and at an odd angle to achieve such deep scalloping. I'll long remeber the photo of a prematurly aged Georges looking into the camera with what would later be immortalized as the "thousand yard stare". This is truly one of the more haunting photos I have seen from that war. >1550 had a weird, or at least non-standard windscreen - the box art >on the kit suggests, but doesn't quite capture the shape of the >windscreen - in the photos it appears taller and more vertical than >in the box art. In any case, the kit windscreen won't do for 1550 It appears from the box art that the kit windshield is close to what is on the box minus the sides. Perhaps two pieces of Evergreen stock cut to shape and bent slightly will fill in the gaps. As far as highth, The windscreen is pretty neat as is. I kind o' hate to scrap it, I'm sure Georges would not object to a field mod. In fact, I'm sure he would be somewhat amazed to find a good German building a representation of his aircraft some 79 years later. Do you realize that most of the pilots of WWI were being born around this time during the last century. I wonder what it was like to be middle-age at the turn of the last century. I've been reading much on that time period of late. Including books on Nikoli Tesla and John D. Rockefeller. It was quite a time. These folks seemed to have been subject to the old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times." They did. > Another problem I seem to have is the roundels supplied with the kit have an odd off shade of what appears to to be blue/green/grey. I always thought of the French markings as having a more vivid blue. Again I box art portrays this on the rudder. Is this the case? Or did Messr. Guynemer exhibit an early example of "subdued" markings on his aircraft of the type that are now common place on many military vehicles around the world? >Hope this helps - holler if ya' need more. Consider this hollerd - CAAAAAALLLLL FOOORRR PHILLLLLLIP MOOOOOORRRRIIIISSS A few additionaly comments as a follow up to my previous post on Guynemer's Nieu. 17 and the Hobby Craft kit. Hey what is this an IRC? 1. The Hobby Craft kit depicts the starboard access cover as kinda a 'squished oval' - narrower on the top than on the bottom while the photos of Guynemer's 1550 show this access cover as perfectly oval. Standard was Oval. Probably attributable to the Gallic sense of Symmertry. Look at the Palace of Versailles. 2. The (I think) air intake pipe immediately in front of the access cover is closer to the access cover in the photos of 1550 than on the Hobby Craft kit - its tough to tell if the access cover is further forward or the pipe further aft but, in any case, there is only about three inches between the forward edge of the access cover and the pipe in the photos. The distance appears much greater on the Hobby Craft kit. (What is that pipe for, anyway?) It is an air intake pipe and there was one on each side - even in the kit. They are supposed to be opposite of each other but many kit have them offset. The Revell 1/28 Camel demonstrates the internal structure very well (which is one reason why I like such large scale). If memory serves it also served as part of the engine support. Yes it is too far away but I won't tell anyone if you won't. 3. There is a little 'doohickey' mounted in the center of the upper wing on 1550. While this is not explained in the text any place, the text does mention that Guynemer did have a bracket for a camera mounted in that location on at least some of his SPAD's. Thus my surmise would be that the 'doohickey' on 1550 is a camera bracket as well. Did messer Guynemer have a Brownie as well as a Vickey? Chow - Isn't this a type of dog? "The Flyin' Wrench" And since your fond of W.R. Hearst - You furnish the pictures, and I'll furnish the war. What war and why was this a famous quote? And to think they called a car the Rambler . . . . . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 05:34:42 -0800 From: t_eisen@ix.netcom.com (Thomas Eisenhour ) To: wwi Subject: Re: Blue Max Kits? Message-ID: <199602011334.FAA02589@ix2.ix.netcom.com> "Vieux" Charles wrote: > >I have an opportunity to buy a number of Blue Max kits and I'm interested in >opinions on both the quality and how buildable they are. IMHO the Nieuport 28 is incredible. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:57:59 -0500 (EST) From: aew (Allan Wright) To: wwi Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport Message-ID: <199602011358.IAA04221@pease1.sr.unh.edu> > 3. There is a little 'doohickey' mounted in the center of the upper > wing on 1550. While this is not explained in the text any place, the > text does mention that Guynemer did have a bracket for a camera mounted > in that location on at least some of his SPAD's. Thus my surmise would > be that the 'doohickey' on 1550 is a camera bracket as well. 'doohickey'? There you guys go getting technical again. How am I going to follow these discussions when you keep using new technical terms I don't understand? (Big :-) -Al =============================================================================== Allan Wright Jr. | I'm not left handed either! - The Man in Black University of New Hampshire+--------------------------------------------------- Research Computing Center | WWI Modeling mailing list: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu Internet: aew@unh.edu | WWI Modeling Mosaic Page: http://pease1.sr.unh.edu =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:19:11 -0700 (MST) From: Randy J Ray To: wwi Subject: Re: Latest FSM Message-ID: <9602011619.AA17486@voodoo.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> Having gotten my issue and read the article, all I can say is that it could have been so much better... Randy -- ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ Randy J. Ray -- U S WEST Technologies IAD/CSS/DPDS Phone: (303)595-2869 Denver, CO rjray@uswest.com I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:59:07 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport - addendum Message-ID: To add to this thread: >At 12:53 AM 2/1/96 -0500, Bill Shatzer wrote: >> >> >>> >>>The Flyin' Wrench inquires: >>> >>>I am considering starting my Hobby Craft Nieuport and was wondering as to >>>the correct color scheme the kit's scheme is suspect as I have never seen it >>>anywhere else and most pubs have his SPAD but never mention his Nie.17 Can >>>I get a few tips on this? >> >>Well, the Albatros Publications "Aces and Airplanes" special on Guynemer >>has some info on, and photos of, Nieuport 1550. > >Is this Data file or pub still available? > Very much Out-Of-Print >>Perhaps the style of the N.3 insignia is correct for 1331 which might >>explain the two-colored stork included as an option. In any case, >>the remainder of the decals and instructions look pretty close to the >>photos although the tonal values on the photos are such that its tough >>to verify the suggested demarcation between the two wing top >>camouflage colors. > >Any FSN color comments as to the color tones for the brown and green And >was the fuselage the classic French silver/grey of which we so often post? > Topic of Brown and GReen French camo is discussed in an early Windsock, volume 2, I believe. The fuselages were silver, aluminised dope Decals suitable for the 1:32 Nieuports of Esc.3 are available from Americal/Gryphon, sheet #113 priced at $12.50 plus postage. This is a very new sheet from them. Quite a few different styles of storks are available on this sheet. >>Two other comments: > >>1550 definitely had a 'cone de penetration' (sp?) so you'll have to >>scratch-built one of those. Can't tell from the photos but the >>painted cover illustration in the "Aces and Airplanes Special" shows >>it in red and white as suggested in the kit instructions (nice of them >>to tell you how to paint a part they don't bother to include, eh?) > >It is odd to supply drawings of nonexistant kit compnents, but at least they >show it. Spinners are not hard to cobble up. After all that is what Georges, >Billy, Albert and the others did for spinners. I guess Nobby craft feels >this scrounging lends to the realism factor, while costing them nothing. > The "cone de penetration" was NOT a spinner, it didn't turn with the prop but instead was an aerodynamic device for streamlining the aircraft. This fact is well documented in several places including at least one Windsock issue. Nieuport put these things on some aircraft and they seem to have been removed in the field as being a nusiance for maintainance, the whole idea eventually being dropped as not worth the effort. > >This brings up another question. What was the story on the colors of his >Spa.VII? I have heard many different stories of how this odd brown and >yellow color scheme came about. Natural linen and the wrong color yellow on >the cowl. The front was simply in the shadow and therefore looked brown etc. >The plate in this book shows a clear, brown to yellow demarcation line about >10 inches or so behind the cockpit just behind the last exhaust bracket with >an odd three scallops issuing from the edge of the brown and pointing >backward. Each scallop begins at one longeron and ends at the one below it. >It appears that the artist was perhaps trying to show the shadow of the >wing's scalloped edge, but the light source would have to be very strong and >at an odd angle to achieve such deep scalloping. > One of Guynmer's SPADs has been preserved in Paris since the war and still bears its original fabric finish, though this has been stabilized and conserved by specialists from the Louvre in the last 7 years or so. A color picture of this has appeared in a Windsock issue, I forget which one. The yellow is a single color over all of the fabric surfaces, it is a colored dope and not a varnished or clear doped finish. There is a similar but slightly different shade of yellow found on the metal panels. The differences have been documented but I don't remember what they are exactly. >Do you realize that most of the pilots of WWI were being born around this >time during the last century. I wonder what it was like to be middle-age at >the turn of the last century. I've been reading much on that time period of >late. Including books on Nikoli Tesla and John D. Rockefeller. It was quite >a time. These folks seemed to have been subject to the old Chinese curse: >"May you live in interesting times." >They did. We all live in interesting times if you know where to look. >> >Another problem I seem to have is the roundels supplied with the kit have an >odd off shade of what appears to to be blue/green/grey. I always thought of >the French markings as having a more vivid blue. Again I box art portrays >this on the rudder. Is this the case? Or did Messr. Guynemer exhibit an >early example of "subdued" markings on his aircraft of the type that are now >common place on many military vehicles around the world? > The blue on French cockades is a lighter shade of a somewhat greyish blue. There is a Caudron in the Smithsonian collection at Silver Hill, its fabric untouched since 1917 and this is the color blue on its cockades. >Hey what is this an IRC? International Reply Coupon, you buy them at the post office, price is US$1.05 these days. This sends the price of an air mail stamp to someone over seas redeemable in many countries. Gets around currency exchange problems. Hope this helps. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:33:08 -0900 From: The Flying Wrench To: wwi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Guynemer's Nieuport - addendum Message-ID: <199602011933.KAA13112@anchor> At 01:45 PM 2/1/96 -0500, Charles Hart wrote: >To add to this thread: > >>At 12:53 AM 2/1/96 -0500, Bill Shatzer wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>>The Flyin' Wrench inquires: >>>> >>>>I am considering starting my Hobby Craft Nieuport and was wondering as to >>>>the correct color scheme the kit's scheme is suspect as I have never seen it >>>>anywhere else and most pubs have his SPAD but never mention his Nie.17 Can >>>>I get a few tips on this? >>> >>>Well, the Albatros Publications "Aces and Airplanes" special on Guynemer >>>has some info on, and photos of, Nieuport 1550. >> >>Is this Data file or pub still available? >> >Very much Out-Of-Print > > > >>>Perhaps the style of the N.3 insignia is correct for 1331 which might >>>explain the two-colored stork included as an option. In any case, >>>the remainder of the decals and instructions look pretty close to the >>>photos although the tonal values on the photos are such that its tough >>>to verify the suggested demarcation between the two wing top >>>camouflage colors. >> >>Any FSN color comments as to the color tones for the brown and green And >>was the fuselage the classic French silver/grey of which we so often post? >> >Topic of Brown and GReen French camo is discussed in an early >Windsock, volume 2, I believe. The fuselages were silver, aluminised dope I was informed that this datafile is out of print at this time - Is my info correct? > >Decals suitable for the 1:32 Nieuports of Esc.3 are available from >Americal/Gryphon, sheet #113 priced at $12.50 plus postage. This is a very >new sheet from them. Quite a few different styles of storks are available >on this sheet. > I'll have to look this up! >>>Two other comments: >> >>>1550 definitely had a 'cone de penetration' (sp?) so you'll have to >>>scratch-built one of those. Can't tell from the photos but the >>>painted cover illustration in the "Aces and Airplanes Special" shows >>>it in red and white as suggested in the kit instructions (nice of them >>>to tell you how to paint a part they don't bother to include, eh?) >> >>It is odd to supply drawings of nonexistant kit compnents, but at least they >>show it. Spinners are not hard to cobble up. After all that is what Georges, >>Billy, Albert and the others did for spinners. I guess Nobby craft feels >>this scrounging lends to the realism factor, while costing them nothing. >> > > The "cone de penetration" was NOT a spinner, it didn't turn with the >prop but instead was an aerodynamic device for streamlining the aircraft. >This fact is well documented in several places including at least one >Windsock issue. Nieuport put these things on some aircraft and they seem >to have been removed in the field as being a nusiance for maintainance, the >whole idea eventually being dropped as not worth the effort. This leads me to wonder how this cone was attached to the aircraft as the photos I have show the cone mounted in front of the propeller and I see no struts attaching it to ay structure. How did the propeller revolve behind the cone without haveing the cone attached to the propeller or hub? Since the entire engine revolved behind the propeller with the propeller hub and crankshaft being one integral component, this becomes even more mystifying. Please enlighten us on this matter.> >>This brings up another question. What was the story on the colors of his >>Spa.VII? I have heard many different stories of how this odd brown and >>yellow color scheme came about. Natural linen and the wrong color yellow on >>the cowl. The front was simply in the shadow and therefore looked brown etc. >>The plate in this book shows a clear, brown to yellow demarcation line about >>10 inches or so behind the cockpit just behind the last exhaust bracket with >>an odd three scallops issuing from the edge of the brown and pointing >>backward. Each scallop begins at one longeron and ends at the one below it. >>It appears that the artist was perhaps trying to show the shadow of the >>wing's scalloped edge, but the light source would have to be very strong and >>at an odd angle to achieve such deep scalloping. >> >One of Guynmer's SPADs has been preserved in Paris since the war and >still bears its original fabric finish, though this has been stabilized and >conserved by specialists from the Louvre in the last 7 years or so. A >color picture of this has appeared in a Windsock issue, I forget which one. >The yellow is a single color over all of the fabric surfaces, it is a >colored dope and not a varnished or clear doped finish. There is a similar >but slightly different shade of yellow found on the metal panels. The >differences have been documented but I don't remember what they are >exactly. > Sigh - If only I could get to the Louvre this week to look at it. > >>Do you realize that most of the pilots of WWI were being born around this >>time during the last century. I wonder what it was like to be middle-age at >>the turn of the last century. I've been reading much on that time period of >>late. Including books on Nikoli Tesla and John D. Rockefeller. It was quite >>a time. These folks seemed to have been subject to the old Chinese curse: >>"May you live in interesting times." >>They did. > >We all live in interesting times if you know where to look. I agree, I agree, in fact just give it a few more years and you won't have to look, interesting times will be on your doorstep kicking your front door in dressed in jackboots and full auto. Been there, done that - I'll be somewhere else this time. Ahhh - the curse and the benefit of historical knoweldge. >>Another problem I seem to have is the roundels supplied with the kit have an >>odd off shade of what appears to to be blue/green/grey. I always thought of >>the French markings as having a more vivid blue. Again I box art portrays >>this on the rudder. Is this the case? Or did Messr. Guynemer exhibit an >>early example of "subdued" markings on his aircraft of the type that are now >>common place on many military vehicles around the world? >> >The blue on French cockades is a lighter shade of a somewhat >greyish blue. There is a Caudron in the Smithsonian collection at Silver >Hill, its fabric untouched since 1917 and this is the color blue on its >cockades. Sigh - If only I could get to the Smithsonian this week to look at it. > >>Hey what is this an IRC? > >International Reply Coupon, you buy them at the post office, price is >US$1.05 these days. This sends the price of an air mail stamp to someone >over seas redeemable in many countries. Gets around currency exchange >problems. > Internet Relay Chat - Bill and I were writing about the same topic at the same. Almost like real time relay. Wow if this keeps up first thing you know we'll be able to actually hear the other persons voice at the end on some sort of contraption - at least that is what Tom Edison keeps saying. Hope this helps. It has - Thank you very much for your time taken to respond to this missal.> > >Charles > >hartc@spot.colorado.edu > "The Flying Wrench" It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order. Thomas Jefferson - 1789 The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it. John Hay - 1871 ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 19 ********************