WWI Digest 187 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: French color matches by MEBA@cso.com 2) French colors by "Wiliam B. Bacon" 3) Re: Fokker works numbers... by "Guy Fogel" 4) Re: New Member by Andreas Einsel <100410.261@CompuServe.COM> 5) RE: FE8 by Andreas Einsel <100410.261@CompuServe.COM> 6) Green/Brown VS Green/Violet by "Stuart L. Malone" 7) Re: Green/Brown VS Green/Violet by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 8) British Aircraft Camouflage by Alberto Rada 9) Re: British Aircraft Camouflage by "Wiliam B. Bacon" 10) Re: New Member by DEdger7875@aol.com 11) Re: French color matches by gregrydquist@juno.com (Gregory N Rydquist) 12) Re: Fokker works numbers... by shingend@ix.netcom.com (Mark Shannon) 13) French Aircraft Camouflage by Alberto Rada ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:13:20 -0500 From: MEBA@cso.com To: wwi Subject: Re: French color matches Message-ID: <199607110712.HAA05625@cso.com> On 10 Jul 96 at 19:46, Alberto Rada typed diligantly: > OK we'll go by Country, today: > > WW I French Aircraft Camouflage Alberto, anyway we can get this from you in some sort of wordproccesor format? The column line up doesn't come across very well, and was just wondering. TIA! Matt meba@cso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:34:10 -0500 From: "Wiliam B. Bacon" To: wwi Subject: French colors Message-ID: <31E510E2.7DFF@genesis.net> Does this help? WWI Frenck Aircraft Camouflage " v " = variant of typical color " ~ " = approximation of color Color name - Item - Floquil Item Name Beige ( ~ ) 303124 PANZER DK. YELLOW beige 303153 BR. MIDDLESTONE beige;light yellow (1916);ecru 818624 NAVY BUFF # 22 ( FS 1750 ) chestnut brown 303028 RED BROWN chestnut brown 303323 US BROWN SPECIAL chestnut brown (v) 110084 FOUNDATION chestnut brown (v) 303139 FR. EARTH BROWN clear doped linen 110085 ANTIQUE WHITE cocarde bleu (~) 303162 BR. P.R.U. BLUE cocarde bleu (std) 303090 LIGHT BLUE cocarde rouge 110135 SP DAYLIGHT RED cocarde rouge 303059 EARLY BRITISH RED dark green 303159 BR. DK. SLATE GREY dark green 303361 SOVIET KHAKI # 2 light green 818605 HAZE GREEN 5 - HG light green (~) underside light yel. (1918) 818672 TALLOW COAT light yel.; underside light yel (1918 ) underside light \gray 110252 CN GREY # 17 underside light yellow (1918) 818626 PANAMA BUFF A/N507 underside light yellow (1918) ecru 110081 EARTH underside light yellow ( 1918 ) light yellow ( 1916 ) ( ~ ) 303390 OLD CONCRETE Bill ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1996 08:21:54 -0700 From: "Guy Fogel" To: wwi Subject: Re: Fokker works numbers... Message-ID: Wow! This is great stuff! This will really help in making the model a classy one... Thanks! Guy Fogel ------------------------------ Date: 7/10/96 5:33 PM To: Guy Fogel From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu <---- Begin Included Message ----> Actually, I can only confirm that -some- triplanes had the werke number on the struts - I don't know if it was an invariable practice. I'd assume it was but without any real authority to support that assumption. Some littleknown Dr-1 marking details the Werk ## on the forward cabane struts in white. On the underside of the wing forward of the spar left side Date of manufacture ie. 17 . 11 . 15 right side This marking Dr-1 Werk# both in black Underside of mid and lower wings Left side Date of manufacture ie. 17.11.15 Centerline of fuse from cowling thru carb inlet to midway along cockpit cutout 24 mm black line (datum line) There are more................. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 96 13:48:45 EDT From: Andreas Einsel <100410.261@CompuServe.COM> To: Multiple recipients Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <960711174845_100410.261_BHG53-1@CompuServe.COM> Hi David, you wrote >I am trying to make a resin kit of the light Flak truck featured in the= book >'Fritz", a memoir of a WWI anti aircraft artillery leutnant. =20 > >I have some very good pictures but no dimensions. Are there any museums or >army units in Germany I should correspond with. If I could determine make= of >truck (Opel, Horch, Mercedes, etc.), I could write the truck manufacturer. You might get some information from Wehrgeschichtliches Museum Karlstr. 1 D- 76437 Rastatt Miltargeschichtliches Forschungsamt Gruenwaelderstr. 10-14 D-79098 Freiburg i. Br. Panzermuseum Munster D-29633 Munster all of them in Germany. I hope this is of any help, Ciao, Andy ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 96 13:48:48 EDT From: Andreas Einsel <100410.261@CompuServe.COM> To: Multiple recipients Subject: RE: FE8 Message-ID: <960711174847_100410.261_BHG53-2@CompuServe.COM> Hi Jose, you wrote >What other products do they (LoneStar) offer? I've tried to get info via e-mail >but couldn't. I ordered the FE-8 from Aeroclub in Nottingham. In their '94 catalogue they list the following 1/48 Lone Star models: Sopwith Snipe Vickers FB 12c Fokker E IV Felixstowe F-2A Pfalz E I Bristol M1 C Etrich Taube HB W 20 Lohner L Siemens Schuckert D I Morane Saulnier N Spad VII Donet Leveque >I almost did order the Koster Hannover, but then the Eduard one came >along. Do you have any colorful schemes I can use on mine? I'm looking >for one with painted fuselage lozenges and some colorful personal >insignia as well (stripes, etc.). What do you need to change to build >the CL.II version of Schlasta 12? Do you have the Hannover Datafile? The Koster Hannover offers thirteen versions (six units): CL II - Schlasta 12, numbers 3, 4, 5, black & white fuselage band, iron crosses CL IIIa - unit unknown, large white 'S' with an arrow, thin Balkenkreuze CL IIIa - Schlasta 21, numbers 4 and 6, long white arrow on the fuselage sides, thin Balkenkreuze CL IIIa - Schlasta 24b, number 6 in a white lozenge, white tail, thin Balkenkreuze CL IIIa - unit unknown, numbers 2, 5, 6, white band round the fuselage, thin Balkenkreuze CL IIIa - Fl. Abt. (A)253, no numbers, but symbols - 'Wandervogel', pawn, hand, thin Balkenkreuze All had the standard type of Hannover camouflage, though according to the Windsock datafile not all had the dark blue (?) overspray on their fuselages. Only two things have to be changed for a CL II conversion - Argus engine instead of Mercedes and straight wing tips. I've finished the wings so far, and start with the interior soon. I won't bother scatchbuilding an Argus (no Rosepart or Aeroclub available yet?) and stick to the Mercedes. The visible parts of both engines look quite similar anyway. I'm not such a perfectionist and anyway - maybe this particular CL II got a Mercedes engine in the end...;-) My next project will probably the Aeroclub FE2b. So, if you have some information on that one, please let me know. I've got only the datafile and, of course, the information from the list. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:23:12 -0500 From: "Stuart L. Malone" To: World War I mailing list Subject: Green/Brown VS Green/Violet Message-ID: <31E570C0.3506@sound.net> Dear list recipients: Was there a specific date or time period when the German A/C went from the G/B camo to the G/V? The reason for my quetion is that I am ready to paint a Halb. DII and have only seen it in G/V. Unless I am mistaken, these entered service just around the time of the Fokker DII, which was G/B. So then the question is, who initiated the G/V scheme, and when was it generally adopted? Please someone straighten out my utter confusion.......... Happy Modeling. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:34:23 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Green/Brown VS Green/Violet Message-ID: Stuart writes: >Dear list recipients: > >Was there a specific date or time period when the German A/C went from >the G/B camo to the G/V? > >The reason for my quetion is that I am ready to paint a Halb. DII and >have only seen it in G/V. Unless I am mistaken, these entered service >just around the time of the Fokker DII, which was G/B. So then the >question is, who initiated the G/V scheme, and when was it generally >adopted? > >Please someone straighten out my utter confusion.......... > Well, it might help if you didn't raise a confusing point. What hurts on this question is the limited (at least for me) number of photos of a/c of this time period which are published (I don't have access to anyone's original print collection and have to rely on books). We have lots of good coverage of things covered with lozenge fabrics from later in the war, but from what I have seen in print earlier machines like the Halberstadt's and early Fokker D-types have poorer coverage. We should look to the forthcoming Pete Grosz volumes for help. There has been a recent piece in World War One Aeroplanes by Dan San Abbott on painted camouflage on Albatros fighters in which he argues for 3 painted colors on the wings. I would disagree with both Dan and Ray Rimell on the placement of green in these painted schemes. Both of these authors appear to interpret green dope as photographing in relatively "light" shades in most prints. Study of many prints, particularly of lozenge covered airframes, suggests to me that one of the darkest shades in a camouflage finish is the green. Careful study of photographs is needed. Good luck. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:09:36 -0400 (AST) From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: British Aircraft Camouflage Message-ID: <199607120109.VAA19285@fw.true.net> I hoppe this time it has a more presentable format WW I British Aircraft Camouflage " ( v ) " = variant of typical color " ~ " = approximation of color Color Name Item No. Floquil Item Name " Battleship " gray 303222 I.J.A. LT. GRAY " Battleship " gray ( v ) 818590 PALE BLUE GRAY 5-P nivo 303103 US FIELD GRAY PC10 303220 I.J.A. GREEN PC12 110601 ZINC CHROMATE PRIMER VB2 blue 110058 CONRAIL BLUE VB3 red 303059 EARLY BRITISH RED Saludos Alberto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:36:31 -0500 From: "Wiliam B. Bacon" To: wwi Subject: Re: British Aircraft Camouflage Message-ID: <31E5AC1F.62B@genesis.net> Alberto, Gracias amigo Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:36:30 -0400 From: DEdger7875@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <960711223627_432457122@emout17.mail.aol.com> Wilkommen, Dietmar!!! Sorry my greeting is late but work does interfere with pleasure sometimes. My family and I lived in Augsburg, Freistadt Bayern for 9 years while stationed with the Intelligence Corps US Army at Gablingen. It has been 6 years since last there and we miss it very much. I have only passed through Koln on the train but was impressed with the Cathedral. Hopfully I can return to Deutschland for a vacation in the future. Again, welcome and happy modeling. Viel gluck und 'viedersehen! Dave Edgerly ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:34:11 PST From: gregrydquist@juno.com (Gregory N Rydquist) To: wwi Cc: wwi Subject: Re: French color matches Message-ID: <19960711.194925.2903.0.GregRydquist@juno.com> ACtually, theearlier version looked better On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:32:54 -0400 Alberto Rada writes: >Read my own message and it looks all garbled up, it's the transcript >from MS word 6, so I'll try direct. > >WWI Frenck Aircraft Camouflage > > " v " = variant of typical color >" ~ " = approximation of color > >Color name - Item No. - Floquil Item Name > >Beige ( ~ ) 303124 PANZER DK. YELLOW >beige 303153 BR. MIDDLESTONE >beige; light yellow ( 1916 ) ; ecru 818624 NAVY BUFF # 22 ( FS 1750 ) >chestnut brown 303028 RED BROWN >chestnut brown 303323 US BROWN SPECIAL >chestnut brown ( v ) 110084 FOUNDATION >chestnut brown ( v ) 303139 FR. EARTH BROWN >clear doped linen 110085 ANTIQUE WHITE >cocarde bleu ( ~ ) 303162 BR. P.R.U. BLUE >cocarde bleu ( standard ) 303090 LIGHT BLUE >cocarde rouge 110135 SP DAYLIGHT RED >cocarde rouge 303059 EARLY BRITISH RED >dark green 303159 BR. DK. SLATE GREY >dark green 303361 SOVIET KHAKI # 2 >light green 818605 HAZE GREEN 5 - HG >light green ( ~ ) underside light yel. ( 1918 ) ; 818672 TALLOW COAT >light yel.; underside light yel (1918 ) > underside light \gray 110252 CN GREY # 17 >underside light yellow ( 1918 ) 818626 PANAMA BUFF A/N507 >underside light yellow ( 1918 ) ecru 110081 EARTH >underside light yellow ( 1918 ) > light yellow ( 1916 ) ( ~ ) 303390 OLD CONCRETE > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:29:52 -0700 From: shingend@ix.netcom.com (Mark Shannon) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fokker works numbers... Message-ID: <199607120429.VAA26747@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> You wrote: > >Wow! This is great stuff! This will really help in making the model a >classy one... >Thanks! >Guy Fogel >------------------------------ >Date: 7/10/96 5:33 PM >To: Guy Fogel >From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu > > ><---- Begin Included Message ----> > > >Actually, I can only confirm that -some- triplanes had the werke >number on the struts - I don't know if it was an invariable practice. >I'd assume it was but without any real authority to support that >assumption. > >Some littleknown Dr-1 marking details > > the Werk ## on the forward cabane struts in white. > >On the underside of the wing forward of the spar > > left side Date of manufacture ie. 17 . 11 . 15 > right side This marking Dr-1 Werk# > > both in black > >Underside of mid and lower wings > > Left side Date of manufacture ie. 17.11.15 > >Centerline of fuse from cowling thru carb inlet to >midway along cockpit cutout > >24 mm black line (datum line) > > >There are more................. > In the scale you say you're working in, one marking that wasn't mentioned but is visible on new Dr. I's is a dark line at the mid point of the leading edge of each wing -- extending through to the 'bumpers' (I don't know what else to call them, the protector caps on the leading edge to protect the wing in shipping?). It is sometimes painted over by personal markings. The color is thought to be either black or red. Mark Shannon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:51:34 -0400 (AST) From: Alberto Rada To: wwi Subject: French Aircraft Camouflage Message-ID: <199607120451.AAA22062@fw.true.net> I hoppe this time it has a more presentable format WW I French Aircraft Camouflage " ( v ) " = variant of typical color " ~ " = approximation of color Color Name Item No. Floquil Item Name beige ( ~ ) 303124 PANZER DK. YELLOW beige 303151 BR. MIDDLESTONE beige; light yellow 818624 NAVY BUFF # 22 (FS1750) (1916); ecru chestnut brown 303028 RED BROWN chestnut brown 303323 US BROWN SPECIAL chestnut brown ( v ) 110084 FOUNDATION chestnut brown ( v ) 303193 FR. EARTH BROWN clear doped linen 110085 ANTIQUE WHITE cocarde bleu (standard)303090 LIGHT BLUE cocarde bleu ( ~ ) 303162 BR. P.R.U. BLUE cocarde rouge 110135 SP DAYLIGHT RED cocarde rouge 303059 EARLY BRITISH RED dark green 303159 BR. DK. SLATE GREY dark green 303361 SOVIET KHAKI # 2 light green 818605 HAZE GREEN 5-HG light green ( ~ ); underside light yel. (1918) 818672 TALLOW COAT light yel.: underside light yel.(1918) underside light \ gray 110252 CN GREY # 17 underside light yellow (1918 ) 818626 PANAMA BUFF A/N 507 underside light yellow (1918 ); ecru 110081 EARTH underside light yellow (1918 ); light yellow (1916) ( ~ ) 303390 OLD CONCRETE ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 187 *********************