WWI Digest 185 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: New Member by u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu 2) 9 April 1916 by u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu 3) Re: New Member by breuer@itz-koeln.de (Dietmar Breuer) 4) Re: Victor Chapman by MEBA@cso.com 5) Re: No. 11 FE2b 7691 by Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) 6) Re: New Member by MEBA@cso.com 7) Re: New Member by MEBA@cso.com 8) Re: New Member by breuer@itz-koeln.de (Dietmar Breuer) 9) Re: New Member by "Wiliam B. Bacon" 10) Re: New Member by stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu 11) Re: No. 11 FE2b 7691 by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 12) Re: No. 11 FE2b 7691 by Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) 13) Re: oh no, ailerons!... by "Guy Fogel" 14) by Peter Fedders 15) Re: Struts by Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) 16) Re: by MEBA@cso.com 17) re: Struts by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 18) Re: by "Wiliam B. Bacon" 19) Re: Victor Chapman by "Wiliam B. Bacon" 20) Inpact Models by jim lyzun 21) Re: Fokker works numbers... by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 06:42:34 -0400 From: u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu To: wwi Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <199607091042.GAA10825@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Welcome, Dietmar. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 06:55:04 -0400 From: u1a00518@wvnvm.wvnet.edu To: wwi Subject: 9 April 1916 Message-ID: <199607091055.GAA10950@pease1.sr.unh.edu> Fine day. Got two rides on most powerful machine of class and did well. I'm getting much more confidence now and the moniteur seems to like me pretty well. Went into Paris after work to attend Church. Came out to Versailles for dinner and then walked out to camp. Met Dugan on way out. He's here for good & makes 14th American. Work in late p.m. and went very well the one time I went up. Dr. Gros out to see us. I like him mighty well. Had supper in Buc with fellows. Franco-American Flying Corps may give us 150 francs a month if we can get them to see it that way. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:22:02 +0100 (WET DST) From: breuer@itz-koeln.de (Dietmar Breuer) To: wwi Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <199607091222.NAA01630@ns.itz-koeln.de> > >On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Dietmar Breuer wrote: > >> My name is Dietmar Breuer, I found the WWI Model discussion list on the= web, >> and subscribed. >> I am mathematican, working in a small software company and living in= Germany >> in a small town near Cologne. > >Welcome! But what do you do modelling-wise? > Well I just re-started this Hobby so I have finish alot of model kit that I have stopped six years ago: -a Gotha G IV Rareplane vac-formed-kit to finish -a Sablatning S.F.5 Formaplane vac-formed-kit to finish -some other kits as (Pfalz D III (Classic Plane), Hansa-Brandenburg C I (Classic Plane), Bleriot XI (Russian), Halberstadt CL IV (Classic Plane), Thomas Morse (Rareplanes) and Curtis Jenny (Veeday) ) in various building stages. Dietmar=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Dietmar Breuer =20 Informationstechnik-Zentrum K=F6ln Eupener Stra=DFe 150 50933 K=F6ln Tel: 0221 - 49707 24 =20 Fax: 0221 - 49707 12 EMail: breuer@itz-koeln.de =20 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:04:33 -0500 From: MEBA@cso.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Victor Chapman Message-ID: <199607090704.HAA26637@cso.com> On 9 Jul 96 at 0:31, Wiliam B. Bacon typed diligantly: > I have a relatively large copy of photo in question. Must be a > N-11 as that's all the LE had in i916. Picture was tahen just > after he was wounded. I have another picture of Chapman beside the > nose of his a/c. Again it is an uncomoflaged N-11. Apicture of the > LE a/c lined up at Luxeille before move to Verdun vacinity shows > both camoflaged and uncamoflaged a/c. Matt are you sure it's > camoflaged? Mine And it must be the same photo, would indicate > cear doped fabric. Will provide copies and details if you would > like. I knew that was going to happen. The picture in Flammer's book *appears* to be camouflaged. When I looked in the Thenault book, the same picture is there, but the plane is obviously clear doped linen, and uncamouflaged. So, I would agree with Bill, that the Nie.11 is uncamouflaged, just because the picture in the Flammer book looks *dirty*. Seriously. It's "smudged" on the bottom, which led me to believe that the plane was camouflaged. Matt meba@cso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:10:32 -0500 From: Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) To: wwi Subject: Re: No. 11 FE2b 7691 Message-ID: <1996Jul09.050033.1155.402495@uprr-internet.notes.up.com> Greg, thanks for the lead on 7691, I'll go over to the library at noon today and see if the territorial correlation's of the two. If the Bristol fighter and Camel books have presentation lists I just need to find the source for the FE2b's. Baldblair is correct. The middle word appears to be 'Saumarez'. I don't know the connection with NSW but Captain Sir James Saumarez was one of Admiral Nelson's 'Band of Brothers'. Perhaps these are towns in NSW? How about our antipodean pals weighing in on this? Good luck! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:08:37 -0500 From: MEBA@cso.com To: wwi Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <199607090708.HAA26882@cso.com> On 9 Jul 96 at 1:39, Dietmar Breuer typed diligantly: > My name is Dietmar Breuer, I found the WWI Model discussion list > on the web, and subscribed. Wilkommen! (Did I get that right? ;-)) Glad to have another on the list. > I am mathematican, working in a small software company and living > in Germany in a small town near Cologne. Sounds like my dad. He's got a PhD in math, but the government decided that wasn't good enough (?) and moved him into software. Glad to have you aboard! Matt meba@cso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:12:21 -0500 From: MEBA@cso.com To: wwi Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <199607090712.HAA27152@cso.com> On 9 Jul 96 at 7:21, Dietmar Breuer typed diligantly: > -a Gotha G IV Rareplane vac-formed-kit to finish > -a Sablatning S.F.5 Formaplane vac-formed-kit to finish > -some other kits as (Pfalz D III (Classic Plane), Hansa-Brandenburg > C I (Classic Plane), Bleriot XI (Russian), Halberstadt CL IV (Classic > Plane), Thomas Morse (Rareplanes) and Curtis Jenny (Veeday) ) > in various building stages. Ah, yes. The Scale of Kings (or the Scale of Hustad) grows by one more member. Since you build in the *correct* scale ;-) you're more than welcome to stay. Matt meba@cso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:10:20 +0100 (WET DST) From: breuer@itz-koeln.de (Dietmar Breuer) To: wwi Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <199607091410.PAA01894@ns.itz-koeln.de> >On 9 Jul 96 at 7:21, Dietmar Breuer typed diligantly: > > > >> -a Gotha G IV Rareplane vac-formed-kit to finish >> -a Sablatning S.F.5 Formaplane vac-formed-kit to finish >> -some other kits as (Pfalz D III (Classic Plane),= Hansa-Brandenburg >> C I (Classic Plane), Bleriot XI (Russian), Halberstadt CL IV (Classic >> Plane), Thomas Morse (Rareplanes) and Curtis Jenny (Veeday) ) >> in various building stages. > >Ah, yes. The Scale of Kings (or the Scale of Hustad) grows by one=20 >more member. > >Since you build in the *correct* scale ;-) you're more than welcome=20 >to stay. > > Sorry I forgot (its my first day) its all 1:72 Dietmar ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Dietmar Breuer =20 Informationstechnik-Zentrum K=F6ln Eupener Stra=DFe 150 50933 K=F6ln Tel: 0221 - 49707 24 =20 Fax: 0221 - 49707 12 EMail: breuer@itz-koeln.de =20 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:28:52 -0500 From: "Wiliam B. Bacon" To: wwi Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <31E25E94.5E5C@genesis.net> Welcome Dietmar. I subscribed a short while ago. You will fid this is a great group. Hope to hear more from you. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 07:54:35 PST From: stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu To: wwi Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <9606098369.AA836924103@SCCCGATE.seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu> Hi My name is Dietmar Breuer, I found the WWI Model discussion list on the web, and subscribed. I am mathematican, working in a small software company and living in Germany in a small town near Cologne. Hi Dietmar; Welcome aboard. ---Stephen Tontoni, Seattle Washington stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu tontoni@halcyon.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:38:53 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: No. 11 FE2b 7691 Message-ID: Charlie wrote: > >In looking over Vintage Warbirds No. 1 'The RFC in WW1' I came across photo >(76) on page 42 of FE2b number 7691, from >No. 11 Squadron, shot down by Lt. Kurt Wolff on 3/21/17. I am thinking this >would be a good subject for the Aeroclub model but >I am having trouble making out the presentation notation painted on the side >of the cockpit. > >In the photograph I can make out 'South Wales No. 4.' on the first line; on >the second line it 'appears' to read '...Mar.. and >Baldblair. I looked through the two presentation lists in the back of the >Camel and Bristol fighter books by Chaz Boyzer (sp?) >and could not find anything that would give me a lead on the full content of >the second line. I assume the first line correctly >should read 'New South Wales No. 4.' Does anyone on the list know how I can >determine the full verbage. I can then work up >the lettering and have decals made? thanks for any help - Charlie Duckworth. Cross & Cockade International volume 14 no.2 from 1983 was an issue devoted entirely to Overseas and UK Presentation aircraft from 1914-18. Quoting from page 53 in that issue: "AUSTRALIA No.5 New South Wales No.4 'The F J White Sumarez & Baldblair' This gift was donated on 21.8.16 and Fe2b 7691 was allocated the name on 4.10.16. It was flown by 11 Sqdn until 31.3.17 when Lt L A Strange and 2/Lt W G T Clifton were shot down by EA near Vitry-en-Artois. DH4 A7483 replaced the FE and was flown by 18 Sqdn before being struck off on 25.6.18. Sopwith Camel C8387 was then inscribed on 3.10.18 having previously flown with 66 Sqdn in May 1918 but not as a gift aircraft. No aircraft was inscribed by January 1919." Unfortunately this issue of C&C did not include any photograph of this machine. Hope this helps. Charles C&C #3733 hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:31:36 -0500 From: Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) To: wwi Subject: Re: No. 11 FE2b 7691 Message-ID: <1996Jul09.092944.1155.403062@uprr-internet.notes.up.com> Charles, thanks very much for the presentation statements on 7691. If I'm going to do a decal for this plane I might look into putting together other presentation for Camels, Bristol Fighters, BE's and other privately funded aircraft. Shouldn't be too hard to typeset using a PC word processor - does anyone on this list want to give me any suggestions for presentation aircraft? If it works out I'll have decals made 1/72 and 1/48 (on the same sheet). Thanks again, Charlie ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1996 08:46:03 -0700 From: "Guy Fogel" To: wwi Subject: Re: oh no, ailerons!... Message-ID: Also, for a few dollars more (no Clint Eastwood pun intended) I got my copy direct from Sterling Publishers. It was $24.95 plus $3.00 Shipping/handling. Here's the address: Sterling Publishing Co. Inc. 387 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016-8810 Any book store could give you there phone number. Alas, I cannot find where I put mine... THX, Guy Fogel ------------------------------ Date: 7/8/96 11:16 PM To: Guy Fogel From: wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu I called up The Scholar's Bookshelf today and they do, indeed, still have Alex Imrie's book 'The Fokker Triplane' in stock for $19.95. Their voice phone number is 609-395-6933 for those of you (like me) who prefer talking to a real live person rather than simply launching electrons into the ether. Their 'real live person' seemed quite friendly and helpful. So, hopefully, my copy of the book is now on its way. Their snail mail address is: The Scholars Bookshelf 110 Melrich Rd. Cranbury NJ 08512 Visa and Mastercard (but, alas, not Discover) accepted. Thanks, Charles! Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:50:49 -0500 From: Peter Fedders To: wwi Message-ID: <199607091850.NAA09902@howdy.wustl.edu> My name is Peter Fedders and I have just joined the network. My problem is struts! How thick were they in most WWI aircraft? Thus how thick should they be in models. It is my impression that the struts in many kits are way too thick. Consider the thickness at the widest point: I have seen detailed plans of the Fokker DVI and DVII and the interplane and cabane struts had a thickness of slightly less than an inch. Also, detailed plans of the Sopwith Pup shows struts of slightly more than an inch. Presumably large planes like the Gothas or Felixstowes had thicker struts. Does anyone have any more information? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 14:09:02 -0500 From: Charles_A._Duckworth@notes.up.com (Charles A. Duckworth) To: wwi Subject: Re: Struts Message-ID: <1996Jul09.120251.1155.403388@uprr-internet.notes.up.com> Peter - I'll make a note and look at the NASM books on the DH4 and the Albatros DV and see what dimensions they show. Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:16:51 -0500 From: MEBA@cso.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Message-ID: <199607091416.OAA09109@cso.com> On 9 Jul 96 at 14:48, Peter Fedders typed diligantly: > My name is Peter Fedders and I have just joined the network. Welcome! This is great, two new people in as many days. > My problem is struts! How thick were they in most WWI aircraft? Thus how > thick should they be in models. It is my impression that the struts in many > kits are way too thick. Consider the thickness at the widest point: You're absolutely correct. Most struts as supplied in most kits are wayyyy over scale. The largest exception would be those with photoetch struts. However, then you've got the problem of them being too flat. ;-) > I have seen detailed plans of the Fokker DVI and DVII and the interplane and > cabane struts had a thickness of slightly less than an inch. Also, detailed > plans of the Sopwith Pup shows struts of slightly more than an inch. > Presumably large planes like the Gothas or Felixstowes had thicker struts. > > Does anyone have any more information? Go ahead and make them as thin as you want. Personally, if the struts are "complicated" (as in those found on Nieuport's) I start with .015" sheet, cut the struts out, and then add the airfoil. Usually, enough is sanded away to make it more to scale. Oh, and this is in 1/72nd. I'm not sure what thickness you would start out with in 1/48th, or larger. For the "easy", "less complicated" struts, I usually start out with Contrail, then sand accordingly. Even the thinnest Contrail is still too thick. Give it a go, and good luck! Matt meba@cso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:35:21 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: re: Struts Message-ID: <199607092035.AA12067@ednet1.orednet.org> Peter Fedders writes: > >My problem is struts! How thick were they in most WWI aircraft? Thus how >thick should they be in models. It is my impression that the struts in many >kits are way too thick. You're absolutely right of course, but whatcha gonna do? That upper wing is molded out of solid styrene rather than being carefully built up from spruce, wires and doped fabric. A 1/48th scale wing -should- weigh only about 1/100,000 as much as a real 1:1 scale wing - instead, it is many, many times heavier. If real bi-planes had wings as heavy for their scale as our plastic replicas do, they'd need 2 x 4's to support their wings as well. The problem is even worse with under- carriages which need to support the entire weight of the model if the whole thing is not to collapse in a heap. Kit strut components -gotta- be overscale (or constructed out of a material a lot stronger than styrene) just because of the physics of the situation. In this regard, vacuforms have a big advantage over injection kits - the lighter construction makes it easier to approach scale dimensions on the struts and undercarriages without the model becoming unduly fragile. But, that being said, you can usually reduce the size of the struts somewhat and get closer to, but not equal, scale appearance. Sometimes judicious sanding down on the kit struts will improve things. Sometimes you gotta construct the struts from scratch - from sheet styrene, Contrail rods, or Strutz. Other times, you just gotta say, "ah, what the heck! the kit stuff is 'good enough'" As I have grown older, I find the last alternative more and more attractive! :-) Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 17:19:58 -0500 From: "Wiliam B. Bacon" To: wwi Subject: Re: Message-ID: <31E2DB0E.12B4@genesis.net> Peter, The others have covered the strut business vfery wel so all I'll add is welcome. Enjoy and have fun with the rest of us. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 20:42:22 -0500 From: "Wiliam B. Bacon" To: wwi Subject: Re: Victor Chapman Message-ID: <31E30A7E.6EEE@genesis.net> Matt, After looking at the photo again, I can see where you could have mistaken it for camoflage. I believe the dark bit on the side of the fuselage is Chapman's shadow. Your opinion. New info I just found. In "The Lafayette Escadrille", by Herbert Maloy Mason, Jr, Random House, NY, 1964, I found the following: Pages 53-55, Chapman was one of the first seven at Luxeuil-Les- Bains. Pages 58 & 59, they receive six Nieuport 11's with two different sized engines. Pages 58 & 59 cover his wounding on June 17th. The wound results in the photo happened June 17, 1916. Page 78, Chapman was gloating over a new 110 HP a/c. Matt, you are the expert, was this an 11? Now the interesting part, page 79, "By June 23 Chapman decided he was again ready for combat; he had test-flown his new fighter, aligned the Lewis gun and had the plane painted a blue-gray color by hisbel.oved mechanic Louis Bley. This has to be the plane he was killed in. In "Warriors with Wings" by Edward Jablonski, Bobs-Merrill, NY, 1966, page 92, "Victor was flying his new 'bus', the Nieuport with the 110 HP engine. Page 92, "Victor strode out of his quarters which he shared wit Kiffen, and proceeded tohus gray Nieuport". McConnell and Parsons make no mention of the a/c color in their sections on Chapman's death. I do not have Nordoff and Hall. There may be confirmation there. No mention of any personal marking. I don't know if this helps but it is food for thought. I would suggest that the "C", if it existed, was probaly on the a/c he was flying when wounded. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:17:45 -0400 (EDT) From: jim lyzun To: wwi Subject: Inpact Models Message-ID: <199607100417.AAA25245@cwconnect.ca> I have a set of the Inpact 'earlybird' type kits I would like to sell/trade as they are not in my realm of interest. Anyone interested can contact me directly through my Email address (aero@cwconnect.ca). Any reasonable offer will be considered for all or individual kits. Kits available: Bristol Boxkite Deperdussin Racer Avro Triplane Martin Handasyde Avro Biplane Bleriot XII Jim Lyzun ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:25:44 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fokker works numbers... Message-ID: <199607100525.AA19133@ednet1.orednet.org> Guy Fogel writes: > 7/8/96 > Fokker works numbers... 4:32 PM > >Another question for Bill Shatzer et al... >I trying to understand the markings on the Dr1 regarding the Fokker "Works >Number" (factory serial number). > >Specifically, the interplane struts had (I think) the works # and "OL" (upper >strut) and "UL" (lower strut). >Also, did the rudder have the works # and "Dr1" between the hinges? Wow! Talk about your esoteric questions! :-) I can confirm the werke number on the interplane struts and that at least some of the triplanes seem to have the "Dr.I" on the rudder - or at least something that -looks- like "Dr.I" - but I really couldn't even venture a guess on the rest. Actually, I can only confirm that -some- triplanes had the werke number on the struts - I don't know if it was an invariable practice. I'd assume it was but without any real authority to support that assumption. You -must- be building in a -really- big scale - I can't imagine these markings would be visible in anything smaller than, say, 1/8th. :-) Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org "My writing wobbles," said Pooh. "I can spell good but my writing wobbles and the letters end up in the wrong places." ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 185 *********************