WWI Digest 109 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re[3]: *BAD* Eduard news! by SHUSTAD@email.usps.gov 2) Re: Re[3]: *BAD* Eduard news! by "Matt Bittner" 3) Kit Collecting by Brian Nicklas 4) Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 5) Re: Re[3]: *BAD* Eduard news! by NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) 6) Re: RE: RE: Fwd: RIchthofen's Reds by NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) 7) Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by DavidL1217@aol.com 8) Re: Re[3]: *BAD* Eduard news! by "Randy J. Ray" 9) Lohner "L" Drawings? by "S.M. Head" 10) Pomilio Colors? by "S.M. Head" 11) Modeling things by huggins@Onramp.NET (John Huggins) 12) Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 13) Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 14) Re: Pomilio Colors? by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 15) Re: Lohner "L" Drawings? by "Matt Bittner" 16) Re: Modeling things by "S.M. Head" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 15:27:06 -0400 From: SHUSTAD@email.usps.gov To: "(u)wwi" Subject: Re[3]: *BAD* Eduard news! Message-ID: <0033000001072348000002*@MHS> Yikes!, My gosh! What does that make me with 437 unbuilt kits! :-0 (163 of them being German & Austro-Hungarian WW I aircraft, all in the master scale of 1/72 of course!). (I know a guy in Minneapolis with about 1500 unbuilt models. 'course he insists he's *only* got about 1200!). Steve H. (The Mad Norseman!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 26 Apr 96 at 11:03, stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu typed diligantly: > Luckily I have one kit on my backlog for me to work on, so > I won't get too bored waiting for the Tripe. What, are you sick? Only *one* in your backlog? And you call yourself a modeler...;-) Did I say one kit in my backlog? I meant to say about 75. Must have been a typo.... actually, it was my sarcasm chip flipped into "full on" position. Have a great week-end all!! (or as the Brits say wee-kend) ----Stephen Tontoni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:46:22 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Re[3]: *BAD* Eduard news! Message-ID: <199604261450.OAA27578@cso.com> On 26 Apr 96 at 15:23, SHUSTAD@email.usps.gov typed diligantly: > (I know a guy in Minneapolis with about 1500 unbuilt models. 'course > he insists he's *only* got about 1200!). Well, since we've got 'em out and are sizin' 'em, one individual I know of has close to 2000 unbuilt (luckily he has recently gotten into more WW1), and another has - probably - over 5000, if not more. Let's just say his cars sit out in the elements... Matt meba@cso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 16:11:56 EDT From: Brian Nicklas To: Subject: Kit Collecting Message-ID: <199604262010.QAA14414@pease1.sr.unh.edu> I'm not collecting, I'm gonna build 'em (yeah, right...) Well, I don't feel so bad now. I STILL feel bad, just not SO bad. But what do I do with all these darn magazines? (No, not the Windsocks - I'm the only one I know with those, around here anyway...) I can't guess how many kits I have, but around 200 would be good, and I'm getting ready to get rid of some (mainly 1/48 blowtorches). Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:19:26 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: > DavidL1217@aol.com wrote: >> >>The cowling of Voss' Triplane is believe by many to have been painted chrome >>yellow, the Jasta 10 color. > And Bill Shatzer replied: >Well, maybe, but very, very doubtful. > > > >2) > >3) The 'face' on the cowling is clearly white. A white 'face' on a >black or dark olive cowling would show up nicely while a white 'face' >on a yellow cowling would be of sufficiently low visibility as to >be hardly worthwhile painting. (Clearly the 'features' of the 'face' >are -not- outlined in black or some other dark color to help them >stand out against a light colored background.) > >4) -Every- photo of F.1 103/17 shows the cowling as dark. Contrary >to the assertion below, not all WW1 b/w film photographed yellow >as dark. Orthochromatic film did photograph yellow as a 'dark' color >but the equally common panchromatic film did not. To support a >yellow color for the cowling, we would have to suppose that every >photo of F.1 103/17 (of which there are several and many of which >are clearly taken on different days) was just, by coincidence taken >with orthochromatic film. > To weigh into this discussion, I'll add my US$0.02. After looking at a lot of photos of German a/c with lozenge finishes one feature struck me as interesting. The lozenge which consistently photographs the darkest are those that are known to be a mixture of yellow and GREEN. These green lozenges even photograph darker than the ochre ones on the same piece of fabric. Given this situation, it should not be surprising that a GREEN cowling on F.1 103/17 might photograph darkly as well. I would also agree with Bill that the "face" on the cowl would also be more visible to an observer when painted on a green background. But then again, we weren't there so we will never have the definitive answer will we ? Enjoy the weekend. Charles hartc@spot.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:19:47 EDT From: NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) To: wwi Subject: Re: Re[3]: *BAD* Eduard news! Message-ID: <096.06931192.NPWE28A@prodigy.com> Remember - it's not the size of the unbuilt kit collection, it's what you do with it. I'm going to build all of them, honest. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:19:51 EDT From: NPWE28A@prodigy.com ( KENNETH L HAGERUP) To: wwi Subject: Re: RE: RE: Fwd: RIchthofen's Reds Message-ID: <096.06931198.NPWE28A@prodigy.com> Shane, Again, many thanks. Let me know if you ever need any help. I've got a few references on WWI topics but enough EA-6B material to sink New Zealand. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:35:35 -0400 From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: <960426183533_522792549@emout15.mail.aol.com> Since I started the yellow cowl discussion, let me site the sources. Alex Imrie's book on the DrI. states that Voss' mechanic stated that the cowl was yellow. Alex Revell's High in the Empty Blue continues this line of reasoning and goes on to suggest that the tail which has not been photograped was also painted yellow. If the F1 103 was not to be personalized, why the face. As respects to the stripes in the front and rear of the fuselage cross backgrounds, this is 'shown' in the famous closeup shot of teh aircraft. Some Jasta 10 aircraft had this. e.g. Hecht's Pfalz DIII. However, this could be shadows upon the olive streaking. The F1's differ from their DrI 'children' in a few ways. The most noteworthy is that the olive streaking was over clear linen and not turquoise as on the F1s. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:06:50 -0600 From: "Randy J. Ray" To: wwi Subject: Re: Re[3]: *BAD* Eduard news! Message-ID: > Remember - it's not the size of the unbuilt kit collection, it's what you > do with it. I'm going to build all of them, honest. I have become a little more realistic about my kit collection (a meager 500 or so). I recently donated 6 to a club fund-raising aution, one to an upcoming show's door prize table, and am about to trade 2 copies of a Tamiya Sherman (the older M4A3 kit) for a *WWI* figurine. Emphasis mine :-). Randy -- ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ Randy J. Ray -- U S WEST Technologies IAD/CSS/DPDS Phone: (303)595-2869 Denver, CO rjray@uswest.com I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 00:18:25 -0400 From: "S.M. Head" To: wwi Subject: Lohner "L" Drawings? Message-ID: <9604262315.aa26756@mail.iapc.net> Hi all! I just picked up a 1/72 Lohner L from Mike West at Lone Star Models. It's decent, resin hull, vac flying surfaces, strut stock, white metal engine, and beautiful photoetch by Fotocut. Now don't get me wrong, I like Mike- he's a friend- but his instructions and vac parts have a lot of improving to do. So I need some drawings of this little flying boat. Specifically the interior and the engine area. Any help in locating a source for these drawings would be greatly appreciated. And if anyone has a 1/72 Lohner from Sierra they'd like to dump off or trade I'm up for that too! Thanks! Scott Head Statement- "The internet is like an unending tree of sprue, linking one component to the next..." -- Newsgroup post Reply: "That's stretching it." -- Shot Cadet ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 00:18:27 -0400 From: "S.M. Head" To: wwi Subject: Pomilio Colors? Message-ID: <9604262327.aa26838@mail.iapc.net> I'm just about finished with a 1/72 Pomilio PE and was wondering if anyone knows where I can find reference to the colors. The instructions call for a "mottled ochre" over medium brown an all uppers and sides, and silver wings with green and brown camoflage oversprayed. I have adequate drawings of the aircraft, but no reliable or accurate color info. Any ideas where I might find some? Thanks! Scott Head Statement- "The internet is like an unending tree of sprue, linking one component to the next..." -- Newsgroup post Reply: "That's stretching it." -- Shot Cadet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:26:56 -0500 From: huggins@Onramp.NET (John Huggins) To: wwi Subject: Modeling things Message-ID: If you are looking for someplace to go on the weekend of May 4 & 5, try the Region VI regional and ScaleFest '96 in Dallas hosted by IPMS NCT (North Central Texas). Doors open to the public at 9:00 am Sat. morning. There are 113 vendor tables, and reps from Aero Master, Testors, Monogram/Revell. Tamiya, Marco Polo (DML, Hasegawa, Jaguar, Kirin), Minicraft, Hobby Craft, Badger Airbrush, Kalmbach and Snow Leopard Publishers will be there. There will be US and German reenactment groups on hand as well as a local air museum. Bert Kensey and Don Greer will be on hand to autograph your Detail and Scale and Squadron/Signal books. There should be about 500 models in the contest. Saturday night will see a BBQ dinner banquit and Bert Kensey will be the quest speaker. Judging will be Sun. morning with awards starting at 4:00pm. The folks at Squadron Mail Order will also open their doors to the modelers starting Friday at Noon. It will only cost $5.00 to get in (model registration and the banquet are extra). JPH Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 21:32:10 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: <199604270432.AA25890@ednet1.orednet.org> MShan15048@aol.com wrote: -snips- > >I thoroughly agree that the aft fuselage could be the result of a more frugal >use of paint by one of the riggers. On the other hand, unless my copies of >the photos were printed funny, it doesn't take much squinting to see the >LIGHT tone of the aft fuselage. This is my comment, that this lighter tone >made McCudden see the plane as Silver-Blue, whether Voss had been applying >personallized markings or not. Well, clearly the rear portion of the fuselage -appears- lighter in most of the photos (there is one taken from the front right side of the a/c where the rear fuselage looks -darker- however.) But equally clearly the rear fuselage was streaked and the streaking is consistent with the normal camouflage which is exactly what I think we should conclude it is, in the absence of some real indications to the contrary. As to what McCudden saw, that's a whole different question. I've always felt that the reported observations of aircrew -in combat- are not very good evidence on the colors and markings of enemy aircraft. Pilots tend to have things occupying their attention other than forming an accurate recollection of colors and markings for the benefit of us modelers. However, I would note that Capt. K. L. Caldwell of No. 60 Squadron, who observed the Voss fight from the periphery and who thus was not involved in flinging his SE.5a around the sky or worrying about tracers zipping by his wingtips, described the triplane as "blue-grey", not silver. -snips- >I would agree with the idea of mud spatter, though the only thing that >bothers me is, *would you leave your plane mud spattered if you were being >visited by royalty?* Of course, the day in the photos looks dreary, and the >photo could have been taken after Voss had flown on a demo flight for the >Crown Prince. Jawohl, mein kommerade. But, why do you assume -that- photo was taken on the day of Crown Prince Karl's visit? The evidence would suggest it was not. In the Crown Prince photos, everyone in the photos appears to be an officer, turned out in their 'Sunday best' - clean uniforms, 'riding' boots, medals and decorations firmly in place. In the 'muddy fuselage' photo, everyone in the photo appears to be enlisted, 'erks' apparently, and certainly not in their 'Sunday best'. One EM is somewhat casually leaning against the cowling with folded arms while another is actually seated in the cockpit. I'd think that that kind of dress, demeanor, and conduct would -not- be permitted during the Crown Prince's visit and would strongly suggest that photo was taken on a different date. >To me, this is the fun part of modeling and research. Those who wave color >chips at each other like they were bible verses miss the point -- we weren't >there, the photos require some study, paints fade with time, and memories are >suspect. Enjoy! Amen to that, although wouldn't it be more fun if we could look at the -real- photographs rather than relying on often marginal reproductions we get in the published books and magazines? Cheers, Bill -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - -"These days the buck stops nowhere." Don Henley - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 22:21:09 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: <199604270521.AA15445@ednet1.orednet.org> DavidL wrote: > >Since I started the yellow cowl discussion, let me site the sources. >Alex Imrie's book on the DrI. states that Voss' mechanic stated that the >cowl was yellow. > >Since I started the yellow cowl discussion, let me site the sources. >Alex Imrie's book on the DrI. states that Voss' mechanic stated that the >cowl was yellow. Well, I hold few in higher regard on this subject than Alex Imrie. But as a counterpoint, let me suggest that, ignoring the fallibility of human memory, that Voss' mechanic may -not- have been the best source on this and may not have been involved with F.1 103/17 to any significant degree. Remember, the triplanes were assigned to J.G.1 (not Jasta 10!) on an operational test. As a new type undergoing testing, presumably the principal responsibility for maintaining the aircraft would not fall to the operational unit (who, after all, had -no- familiarity with the aircraft) but rather to Fokker mechanics or at least mechanics from a higher echelon. At the time the triplanes arrived at J.G.1, the entire Geshwader was flying aircraft with -in line- engines, Jasta 10 in Pfalz D.III's and the remainder of J.G.1 using Albatros D.V's and the mechanics had no recent experience with rotaries. Moreover, as the triplanes were officially only under operational testing (and could be jerked as 'unsuitable for service' at any time), I'd wonder if they even spent much time training or familiarizing the operational ground crew with the Fokker or had 'em spend much time working on them. After all, normal maintainance of the rest of J.G.1's operational aircraft would be required and in late August of '17, the two triplanes assigned to J.G.1 were it. There weren't no more and it would be mid-October before any more arrived. Why spend time training mechanics on an aircraft that might not be adopted and, in any case, was at least a month and a half away from entering service. So, I'm wondering if "Voss' mechanic" really had much contact with F.1 103/17. Now he would have considerable contact with Voss' Pfalz and that, of course, clearly could have had a yellow nose. So, I'd suggest at least the possibility of some confusion of memory. >Alex Revell's High in the Empty Blue continues this line of reasoning and >goes on to suggest that the tail which has not been photograped was also >painted yellow. The tail certainly -has- been photographed. See page 21 of the Albatros Publications Aces and Aeroplanes series on Voss. And it appears to be diagonally streaked camouflage. >If the F1 103 was not to be personalized, why the face. Well, it was 'personalized' fer shur. The question is, did the personalization go beyond the 'face'? >As respects to the stripes in the front and rear of the fuselage cross >backgrounds, this is 'shown' in the famous closeup shot of teh aircraft. > Some Jasta 10 aircraft had this. e.g. Hecht's Pfalz DIII. However, this >could be shadows upon the olive streaking. Well, perhaps we all see what we wish to see but I can see only 'dark streaking' and nothing that looks like a purposefully applied 'stripe'. Certainly the Luftfliegertruppen had no problem applying a clear, clean stripe when they wanted to apply a 'stripe'. (examples too numerous to list.) >The F1's differ from their DrI 'children' in a few ways. The most noteworthy >is that the olive streaking was over clear linen and not turquoise as on the >F1s. This is certainly true, although there is some possibility that some of the early Dr.I's continued the olive over turquoise scheme of the F.I's. This is not a theory I currently subscribe to but I have no solid evidence to refute it so it remains possible. Cheers, Bill -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - -"These days the buck stops nowhere." Don Henley - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 22:27:57 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Pomilio Colors? Message-ID: <199604270527.AA18029@ednet1.orednet.org> Scott Head wrote: > >I'm just about finished with a 1/72 Pomilio PE and was wondering if anyone >knows where I can find reference to the colors. The instructions call for a >"mottled ochre" over medium brown an all uppers and sides, and silver wings >with green and brown camoflage oversprayed. I have adequate drawings of the >aircraft, but no reliable or accurate color info. Any ideas where I might >find some? Thanks! Ray Rimmel gives FS 14110 (Methuen 26E/F7-8) and FS 11136/20152 (Methuen 9D7) as approximate values for the Italian camo green and red/brown respectively. Cheers, Bill -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - -"These days the buck stops nowhere." Don Henley - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 08:18:41 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Lohner "L" Drawings? Message-ID: <199604270822.IAA24247@cso.com> On 27 Apr 96 at 0:19, S.M. Head typed diligantly: > I just picked up a 1/72 Lohner L from Mike West at Lone Star > Models. It's decent, resin hull, vac flying surfaces, strut stock, > white metal engine, and beautiful photoetch by Fotocut. Now don't > get me wrong, I like Mike- he's a friend- but his instructions and > vac parts have a lot of improving to do. So I need some drawings of > this little flying boat. Specifically the interior and the engine > area. Any help in locating a source for these drawings would be > greatly appreciated. And if anyone has a 1/72 Lohner from Sierra > they'd like to dump off or trade I'm up for that too! Thanks! The only thing I have references on is an L.40 (?) which is covered by WWI Aero, #113, in their Cockpits/Instruments section. And sorry, but nothing on the Pomilio. Good luck! Matt -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Matthew Bittner O- WW1 Modeler, ecto subscriber meba@cso.com PowerBuilder developer; Omaha, Nebraska Loreena McKennitt; Jewel; suddenly, tammy!; jehova waitresses Disclaimer: opinions expressed by me are mine, mine, mine! "Gee, for a powerful magnate, you don't pick things up too quickly, do you?" - Bullwinkle -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:04:38 -0400 From: "S.M. Head" To: wwi Subject: Re: Modeling things Message-ID: <9604271206.aa00344@mail.iapc.net> John Huggins wrote: >If you are looking for someplace to go on the weekend of May 4 & 5, try the >Region VI regional and ScaleFest '96 in Dallas hosted by IPMS NCT (North >Central Texas). Indeed a very fine show and well worth the time if you can make it. Squadron's open house is worth a trip alone, not to mention the fine folks in the DFW area. Too bad I'll be missing it this year, but good luck to you all! And thanks to yoa all from North Central who made it down to Houston for our best yet Modelmania Show (what a goofy name, eh?). Fill up the WWI category! Scott Head IPMS Houston Statement- "The internet is like an unending tree of sprue, linking one component to the next..." -- Newsgroup post Reply: "That's stretching it." -- Shot Cadet ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 109 *********************