WWI Digest 108 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Montreal and WWI by hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) 2) RE: Re: Montreal and WWI by "Guy Fawcett (403) 435-7214" 3) Re: RIchthofen's Reds by "Capt Glenn" 4) B-1B Histories & Markings by "Capt Glenn" 5) RE: FYI by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 6) WWI Tank Colors by mkendall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mike Kendall) (by way of BOEKE@bucknell.edu (Joseph R. Boeke)) 7) Re: WWI TreadHead Question by mkendall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mike Kendall) (by way of BOEKE@bucknell.edu (Joseph R. Boeke)) 8) Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by DavidL1217@aol.com 9) Re: Montreal and WWI by DavidL1217@aol.com 10) Re: Montreal and WWI by DavidL1217@aol.com 11) Re: Montreal and WWI by DavidL1217@aol.com 12) RE: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 13) *BAD* Eduard news! by mnelson@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca (Mark K. Nelson) 14) Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 15) Re: Fwd: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 16) Re: Fwd: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) 17) RE: RE: Fwd: RIchthofen's Reds by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 18) RE: RE: Fwd: RIchthofen's Reds by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 19) List addicts anonymous by SDW@qld.mim.com.au 20) Re: List addicts anonymous by "Matt Bittner" 21) Re: *BAD* Eduard news! by stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu 22) Re: *BAD* Eduard news! by "Matt Bittner" 23) Re: Richthofen's Reds by MShan15048@aol.com 24) Albatros D.Va "Stropp" by Brian Nicklas 25) Yo! Stepehen... by Mathoo@aol.com 26) Re: Richthofen's Reds by "Matt Bittner" 27) Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes by MShan15048@aol.com 28) Re: Richthofen's Reds by MShan15048@aol.com 29) Re[2]: Richthofen's Reds by SHUSTAD@email.usps.gov 30) Re[2]: *BAD* Eduard news! by stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu 31) RE: RE: Fwd: RIchthofen's Reds by cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) 32) Not WWI stuff was (RE: Yo! Stepehen...) by stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:49:21 -0700 From: hartc@spot.Colorado.EDU (Charles Hart) To: wwi Subject: Re: Montreal and WWI Message-ID: >On 25 Apr 96 at 14:58, Charles Hart typed diligantly: > >> On a related topic, there is a color photo in a recent Air Enthusiast >> Quarterly of a new replica Fokker D-VII just completed for the USAF Museum >> in Dayton. This replica has original instruments and Mercedes engine. It >> features cowling panels in the pattern of OAW built machines in order that >> the application of replica 5-color lozenge fabric from the Museum fuer >> Verkehr und Teknik in Berlin would be correct. I forget the jasta markings >> it is painted in , but they are spectacular. and Matt asked: >Isn't this same aircraft on the inside front cover of the latest >Windsock? to which Charles responds: Don't know, haven't seen this Windsock yet. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:15:06 -0600 (MDT) From: "Guy Fawcett (403) 435-7214" To: wwi Subject: RE: Re: Montreal and WWI Message-ID: <0506151425041996/A12401/NOFC2/11A4CB8B0E00*@MHS> I'm not sure why people find that the museum at Knowlton is trying to hinder anyone. My brother spent an afternoon there about a year or so ago and made a 15 min video tape of a complete walk around of the aircraft and the guard there was helpful to the point of providing a step ladder to take some shots of the top of the wing and cockpit. Tally ho Guy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:09:03 CDT From: "Capt Glenn" To: wwi Subject: Re: RIchthofen's Reds Message-ID: <3554E03306@bs28.dyess.af.mil> > Subject: Re: RIchthofen's Reds > Actually, If I knew the interest it would have sparked.... > > I have the article in question. Others interested can let me know and we can > get the chain going here. > I'm New to wwi stuff but I am learning. A copy of "Richthofen's Reds" would be much appreciated as well as a list of all other wwi publications that are essential to a modeler / history buff. Forgive us B-1 guys - we still enjoy the bipes & props. Matt Glenn 5142 Wagon Wheel Ave. Abilene, TX 79606-5372 USA Glennm@bs28.dyess.af.mil 'Fly By Night' Mattman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:35:11 CDT From: "Capt Glenn" To: wwi Subject: B-1B Histories & Markings Message-ID: <35C3AC29B2@bs28.dyess.af.mil> > Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 23:58:04 -0700 > Subject: B-1B info > Greetings Capt. Matt, > Saw your request on the WW I list. Have you seen the current issue of > "World Airpower Journal" ? This is a slick publication from the UK and the > current issue has a feature article on the B-1, including its development > and deployment. This article ends with a summary of current B-1 "users" > and frequently features photos of a/c from those units. You might try this > as a starting point. The graphics are excellent in this journal and your > son will probably enjoy them as well. The only drawback is the cost, a > single issue is about $19.00. > > Good hunting, > > Charles Hart > hartc@spot.colorado.edu > Charles, Thanks for the info. I have been receiving WAJ from the beginning and have that copy (BTW there are a few small errors about the B-1 in there). I've been trying to put together a history from the initiation of the 9th and 28th Bomb Squadrons both of which have their roots in WWI. To the best of my knowledge the 9 BS(formerly a night observation sq) flew DH 4s and Breguet 14s and the 28 BS flew Spad VIIs and XIIIs initially. If you know of any more precise info including Tail #s and markings that would help greatly! 'Fly By Night' Matt "Mattman" Glenn 5142 Wagon Wheel Ave. Abilene, TX 79606-5372 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 96 07:28:00 EDT From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Cc: GSpring%ix.netcom.com@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: RE: FYI Message-ID: <199604252151.HAA27250@mimmon.mim.com.au> Hi Greg, I wrote: >>After rising at 3:30am for a gunfire breakfast and a wet dawn service, >>here I am at work as usual. Maybe I can get some of this computer stuff >>to work properly after starting the day with a skinfull of Bundy ;-) > > Please to be explaining 'gunfire breakfast'and 'Bundy'. > I know what a cavalryman's breakfast is: A good puke and a cigar. > Bundy was a nasty mass murderer in the States a few years ago. > A gunfire breakfast is simply coffee laced with rum, kind of like "Dutch Courage". I don't partake of coffee but I'm partial to rum so my gunfire breakfasts are drunk straight from the neck of the bottle. Traditional in Army messes and Returned services Clubs before dawn service on ANZAC Day Bundy is a mass murderer here too ;-) Or at least some taste bud disadvantaged Kiwis told me so. Bundaberg Rum - "Bundy" - is manufactured at Bundaberg north of Brisbane, and is by far the biggest selling rum in this country. Regards Shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 03:45:46 GMT From: mkendall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mike Kendall) (by way of BOEKE@bucknell.edu (Joseph R. Boeke)) To: wwi Subject: WWI Tank Colors Message-ID: Hi folks, Awhile back there was some conversation about WWI Brit/American tank paint colors. I mentioned I thought a khaki green was close, and others had other ideas. Talked to David Fletcher at The Tank Museum in Bovington, UK, and he thought the primary color (after the early fancy camo era) was a light brown with a hint of yellow. He bases his thoughts on a model of a Mk VIII by the same factory that made the tanks, in its original paint. Their attempts to match the shade has failed, so don't trust their tank colors in the museum. The khaki brown was probably used on artillery, etc, also. In the end he pointed out that the paint was pretty well covered by mud falling of the tracks overhead anyway, so any light mud brown would suffice. Gee, I'm wrong again.... What a pain. I lost a beer to this one. By the way, US tanks coming from the UK probably had the same brown paint. Heaven knows what we painted the ones from the States. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 03:33:21 GMT From: mkendall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mike Kendall) (by way of BOEKE@bucknell.edu (Joseph R. Boeke)) To: wwi Subject: Re: WWI TreadHead Question Message-ID: >Can anyone tell me where to find scale drawings and reference material of >these two WWI French AFVs: > Char St. Chamond > Schneider >T'anks, >--Jesse Info on these two is easier to find than drawings. Look for the book called Tank, by Macksey/Batchelor, published by Scribners. Sort of a basic text on tank developement, but will give dimensions, etc., and dates. As far as drawings, both tanks are out in small scale resin, by someone, probably Azimut or Cromwell (you might check adds in Military Modelling mag). You might also try writing the Tank Museum, at Bovington. They have a plan service, and one of these may be in their listing. Sorry I can't be of better help, but I've been casually looking for a good set of drawings of French WWI tanks for a long time. Please E-mail me if you want the particular manufacturer of the kits (I've got listings around here somewhere), or the address to Bovington. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:55:29 -0400 From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: <960425235528_100735396@emout19.mail.aol.com> The cowling of Voss' Triplane is believe by many to have been painted chrome yellow, the Jasta 10 color. The face is a Japanese kite design. I believe there may have been dark or yellow stripes (yellow is dark on WWI photos because the film image shows the 'heat' or reflection rather than the shade.) on the front and back sides of the fuselage cockade. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:07:54 -0400 From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Montreal and WWI Message-ID: <960426000753_100743442@emout08.mail.aol.com> Knowlton is on Lake Brome. When my wife and I went there, the small band of 'mad housewives' that run the place are very protective of the aircraft. In fact, they claim that the DVII in the Smithsonian was a replica and theirs was the only real DVII in the world. I conceded that the Smithsonian bird had been restored and many parts would probably been counterfeited however, it was real and so were the ones in Paris, Munich and in pieces, Rockcliff and in the UK. They are like monks tending a shrine. If you see Knowlton, you know there is little else to do! There are a few interesting WWI trench articles there. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:12:19 -0400 From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Montreal and WWI Message-ID: <960426001218_100746438@emout18.mail.aol.com> In the 1920's a government officialfrom the area and one of their aces, I believe it was Collishaw, grabbed the pieces and put the aircraft there. The Canadian govt. ordered all German aircraft destroyed as there had been some accident involving some of the aircraft while flying in displays in Canada. This aircraft was taken to preserve it from the government ninnys that seemed to run rampant in severa; countries after the war. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:13:11 -0400 From: DavidL1217@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Montreal and WWI Message-ID: <960426001310_100746940@emout16.mail.aol.com> Yes ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 96 14:17:00 EDT From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: RE: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: <199604260438.OAA10322@mimmon.mim.com.au> Hello all, Someone without a name I can read says: >The cowling of Voss' Triplane is believe by many to have been painted chrome >yellow, the Jasta 10 color. The face is a Japanese kite design. I believe >there may have been dark or yellow stripes (yellow is dark on WWI photos >because the film image shows the 'heat' or reflection rather than the shade.) > on the front and back sides of the fuselage cockade. Just a small point of detail first. WW1 film does *not* show the heat of the image. In fact, it was what is called orthochromatic film, and was not sensitive to light at the red end of the spectrum - where infra red - heat - is actually to be found. Red appears as black because ortho film is not affected by red light, so the negative is not darkened by the exposure and consequently the positive (the print) IS heavily affected and goes black. Yellow is affected to the exent that it has a red component. So a pale (lemon) yellow would appear light, but an orangish yellow like chrome yellow would appear dark. There is NO secret about how all this works. Modern black and white photographic paper has very similar characteristics, since it has to be insensitive to red light so the photographer can work in the darkroom under safe lights. Second point. I am very reluctant to believe Voss' cowling to be yellow on the evidence brought to light so far (none whatever, just surmise, based on the fact yellow was the jasta colour). It _may_ be so, but why then would Voss have painted the markings on it in white? Remember HE would have been looking at it in colour and NOT with the "yellow" conveniently made black so that the markings stand out, white on black. In summary, I'll personally forget the idea of building Voss' machine either way until I see proof.(fat chance) Regards Shane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:54:56 -0600 From: mnelson@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca (Mark K. Nelson) To: wwi Subject: *BAD* Eduard news! Message-ID: I called up Eduard Model Accessories in Nepean Ontario today and asked for news on the 1:48 Sopwith Triplane. (Sob!) Apparantly there has been an unspecified problem with the decal manufacturer. The kit has been delayed - possibly into July. On the other hand the PKZ-2 helicopter should be out very soon. _____________________________________________________________________ Mark (An Employee at Kites & Other Delights in West Edmonton Mall) ------------------------ mnelson@compusmart.ab.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:12:09 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: <199604260512.AA16218@ednet1.orednet.org> DavidL1217@aol.com wrote: > >The cowling of Voss' Triplane is believe by many to have been painted chrome >yellow, the Jasta 10 color. Well, maybe, but very, very doubtful. 1) While the British intelligence report of the examination of the wreckage carefully notes the under surface colors (streaks of 'various shades of green, blue, and grey') and the undersurface color ('greyish blue') there is -no- mention of a yellow cowl. A most curious omission if it really was yellow. 2) While Jasta 10's Pfalz's did use yellow noses, F.1 103/17 was -not- assigned to Jasta 10, rather it was assigned to J.G. 1 for operational testing. As it was -not- a Jasta 10 aircraft, there is no reason to suppose it would use Jasta 10 colors. Note that both MvR and Kurt Wolff, commander of Jasta 11, flew the other triplane, F.1 102/17 which was likewise assigned to J.G.1 and not to any particular Jasta. 3) The 'face' on the cowling is clearly white. A white 'face' on a black or dark olive cowling would show up nicely while a white 'face' on a yellow cowling would be of sufficiently low visibility as to be hardly worthwhile painting. (Clearly the 'features' of the 'face' are -not- outlined in black or some other dark color to help them stand out against a light colored background.) 4) -Every- photo of F.1 103/17 shows the cowling as dark. Contrary to the assertion below, not all WW1 b/w film photographed yellow as dark. Orthochromatic film did photograph yellow as a 'dark' color but the equally common panchromatic film did not. To support a yellow color for the cowling, we would have to suppose that every photo of F.1 103/17 (of which there are several and many of which are clearly taken on different days) was just, by coincidence taken with orthochromatic film. >The face is a Japanese kite design. I believe >there may have been dark or yellow stripes (yellow is dark on WWI photos >because the film image shows the 'heat' or reflection rather than the shade.) > on the front and back sides of the fuselage cockade. I have -no- reason to suspect -any- stripes, yellow or otherwise, on the sides of the fuselage 'cockade' (which, is not properly called a 'cockade' unless it's round and French although by popular extension, it can include other round national insignia similar to the French cockade but certainly not Maltese crosses). While there is a darker 'streaking' immediately after of the cross surround on F.1 103/17, as I mentioned in a previous post, that would appear to be just an artifact of the painting process. Certainly if it were -yellow- and the cowling were -yellow-, the 'streaking' would be the same tonal quality as the cowling. It is not. There is nothing in any of the photos of F.1 103/17 which would support a supposition of any sort of purposely applied 'stripe'! A few months back, someone with a better grasp of the photographic process than I posted a lucid explanation of how colors are recorded on WW1-era b/w film but suffice it to say, it has nothing to do with the 'heat', rather it has to do with the sensitivity of the film to various portions of the color spectrum. Orthochromatic film is relatively -insensitive- to light in the yellow-orange portion of the spectrum and thus film exposed to light in that range does not 'darken', leaving a light image on the negative and a correspondingly -dark- image on the print. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - -"These days the buck stops nowhere." Don Henley - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:51:14 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fwd: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: <199604260551.AA00102@ednet1.orednet.org> MShan15048 wrote: >If a new voice might pop into the discussion. > >I have only found three photos that clearly show the fuselage of FI 103/17, >two on the occasion of Crown Prince Carl's August 1917 visit to Jasta 10. In >all three photos, the fuselage of the plane looks washed out or lighter in >tone than the nose area and visible portions of the wings. Two photos, one >clearly showing the FI 103/17 serial, both show a darker streaked band >immediately behind the white fuselage cross surround, then a much more >faintly streaked fuselage aft of that. In addition, the cross background is >rather streaky forward of the actual cross in the photo with the serial >clearly showing. > >Those are the facts. Interpretation is the whole thing from there. Could >Voss have been starting to personalize "his" plane? None of the photos show >a difference in tone between the cowling and the streaking on the forward >fuselage, yet this after fuselage lightness in tone and much reduced >streakiness is very obvious in the photos. As I previously posted, I think the 'streaked band' is just an artifact of the painting process. After squinting a numerous photos of F1 103/17, I think the lighter rear fuselage is simply a combination of differences in the angle of light reflection and the normal variations in the intensity of the application of the 'streaked' camouflage. Maybe two different painters did the fore and aft applications of the camouflage and the 'aft' guy was just a little more frugal with paint? The appearance of the white cross surround in the one photo you mentioned is somewhat more problematic but after studying this photo for some time, what I think we are seeing is nothing but -mud-! Not only is the white area kinda funny looking but it is almost impossible to distinguish the dividing line between the white and the camouflage. And there appear to be large darkish hunks of -something- scattered over both the white and camouflaged portions. Given that Voss was reported to have made his first flight in the Fokker F.1 on August 28, '17, "in spite of rain and high winds", clearly there were some muddy periods while he was flying the Fokker. The pattern observed seems perfectly consistant with -mud- being kicked up on the fuselage by the landing gear. Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - -"These days the buck stops nowhere." Don Henley - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:39:12 -0700 From: bshatzer@orednet.org (Bill Shatzer) To: wwi Subject: Re: Fwd: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: <199604260639.AA13537@ednet1.orednet.org> Arrgh! I pervious wrote: "1) While the British intelligence report of the examination of the wreckage carefully notes the UNDER SURFACE colors (streaks of 'various shades of green, blue, and grey') and the undersurface color ('greyish blue') there is -no- mention of a yellow cowl. A most curious omission if it really was yellow." And, of course, I meant: "1) While the British intelligence report of the examination of the wreckage carefully notes the UPPER SURFACE colors (streaks of 'various shades of green, blue, and grey') ........." Oh well. (blush!) :-) Cheers, -- Bill Shatzer - bshatzer@orednet.org -or- aw177@Freenet.Carleton.ca - -"These days the buck stops nowhere." Don Henley - ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 96 16:41:00 EDT From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: RE: RE: Fwd: RIchthofen's Reds Message-ID: <199604260704.RAA15283@mimmon.mim.com.au> Carlos, I posted a copy to you anyway, having already enveloped and stamped a second one. Maybe by cutting a generation out of the trail of copies the quality will be better. It should take about a week to get to you. Regards Shane ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 96 16:40:00 EDT From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: RE: RE: Fwd: RIchthofen's Reds Message-ID: <199604260704.RAA15281@mimmon.mim.com.au> Ken, Your article is in the mail. I have also copied Carlos (since I'd already prepared one) which will at least save one generation of copies. It should take about a week. Shane ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 96 16:45:00 EDT From: SDW@qld.mim.com.au To: wwi%pease1.sr.unh.edu@teksup.mim.com.au Subject: List addicts anonymous Message-ID: <199604260707.RAA15351@mimmon.mim.com.au> Hi all, Just a brief note that I'll be absent (in Melbourne) for the next week, so any rude remarks (Mick), queries or blandishments passed in my direction will be ignored for a few days. However I will NOT be switching my mail off, since I can't bear the thought of missing out on a single mesage. Theres a possible subject for discussion - is there anyone else who goes crazy trying to make sure he gets his fix from this list? See you all next week, Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 07:21:47 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: List addicts anonymous Message-ID: <199604260726.HAA20599@cso.com> On 26 Apr 96 at 2:49, SDW@qld.mim.com.au typed diligantly: > Theres a possible subject for discussion - is there anyone else who goes > crazy trying to make sure he gets his fix from this list? Isn't that all of us? ;-) I was crazy enough at one point to go to digest mode - well, after salivating and shaking for awhile, I went back to bounce, or loose mode. A day without this list, is like a day without *modeling*. :-) Matt -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Matthew Bittner O- WW1 Modeler, ecto subscriber meba@cso.com PowerBuilder developer; Omaha, Nebraska Loreena McKennitt; Jewel; suddenly, tammy!; jehova waitresses Disclaimer: opinions expressed by me are mine, mine, mine! "but it's like santa claus, your parents have to help a Little bit and show him where to buy the stuff and write your name on it in their handwriting after he wraps it." - Anna Sunshine Ison, talking about what's real and what isn't -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 08:03:44 PST From: stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu To: wwi Subject: Re: *BAD* Eduard news! Message-ID: <9603268305.AA830531044@SCCCGATE.seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu> I called up Eduard Model Accessories in Nepean Ontario today and asked for news on the 1:48 Sopwith Triplane. (Sob!) Apparantly there has been an unspecified problem with the decal manufacturer. The kit has been delayed - possibly into July. Very interesting news...... I would love to buy that thing without the decals since, in my unabbreviated opinion, Propaqteam decals are not worth the carrier that they're printed on. I wonder if that would be a possibility. Luckily I have one kit on my backlog for me to work on, so I won't get too bored waiting for the Tripe. ---Stephen Tontoni (HAPPY FRIDAY TO ALL!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:13:53 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: *BAD* Eduard news! Message-ID: <199604261018.KAA23065@cso.com> On 26 Apr 96 at 11:03, stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu typed diligantly: > Luckily I have one kit on my backlog for me to work on, so > I won't get too bored waiting for the Tripe. What, are you sick? Only *one* in your backlog? And you call yourself a modeler...;-) Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:54:22 -0400 From: MShan15048@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Richthofen's Reds Message-ID: <960426115421_100968946@emout12.mail.aol.com> In my previous note on the subject I wrote: >Dr. I 477/17 Red nose, rear fuselage, wheel hubs, tail, and upper surface of wing. Not >well photographed. >Dr. I 127/17 As for 152/17 except-- Photographs tend to show this plane in an >intermediate state. Rudder was painted red, but wing and fuselage cross backgrounds >left white. Fuselage red appeared to be from leading edge of white rectangles on >top-decking of this plane. One picture suggests that the underside of the fuselage was >not initially painted, nor the tail underside. This is somewhat at odds with MvR's >statements to his mother that he wanted the ground troops to see his plane protecting >them. I wish to make my appologies for simplifying and stating incorrectly on these two: Dr. I 477/17 was photographed in its glory, or at least one almost certain to be it. It is plate #95 in the Alex Imrie book *The Fokker Triplane*. THIS is the photo I remembered when I said about 127/17 that the underside of the fuselage and tail surfaces were not initially painted. The photo shows the light blue ribbing tape applied along the lower edge of the fuselage as still visible and un-painted. Plate #59 in the same book shows 127/17 in its partly painted state as I described previously. In it, the photo leaves doubt as to whether the rear fuselage and horizontal tail had been painted red AT ALL, yet. This book is a wonderful resource, and I would add to it the much cheaper Squadron/Signal "Fokker Triplanes in Action" as long as you are only looking at THE PHOTOGRAPHS ALONE. Many of the photos are mislabelled as to their subject, but some are not in the other publication. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 12:14:51 EDT From: Brian Nicklas To: Subject: Albatros D.Va "Stropp" Message-ID: <199604261613.MAA13124@pease1.sr.unh.edu> To answer a question Greg had (and possibly others), I dug through the notes on Stropp and the shade of green used on the metal parts. Munsell 2.5 G 4/2 was used, which compared to FS 595B color chips works out to darker than FS 34128, but lighter than FS 34094. Using FS 34128 to take into account scale effect might be fine. (It's what I'll use.) Now that I've found where the Munsell book is, in my free time (hah!) I'll try to get my notes on restoration colors and translate Munsell into FS 595B approximations. Nothing can be exact, the Munsell is too detailed. I regret that I cannot search/compare on request, I don't think I will have that much access to the book. Brian Nicklas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:21:01 -0400 From: Mathoo@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Yo! Stepehen... Message-ID: <960426122059_100984068@emout18.mail.aol.com> Howdy! Do you know if there are any good model-related things going on this weekend? Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:21:21 -0500 From: "Matt Bittner" To: wwi Subject: Re: Richthofen's Reds Message-ID: <199604261125.LAA24068@cso.com> On 26 Apr 96 at 11:52, MShan15048@aol.com typed diligantly: > This book is a wonderful resource, and I would add to it the much cheaper > Squadron/Signal "Fokker Triplanes in Action" as long as you are only looking > at THE PHOTOGRAPHS ALONE. Many of the photos are mislabelled as to their > subject, but some are not in the other publication. Don't forget the wonderful book put out by Imrie. Matt meba@cso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:39:40 -0400 From: MShan15048@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: FI/Dr I Color Schemes Message-ID: <960426123940_383426396@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-04-26 BSHATZER writes: >As I previously posted, I think the 'streaked band' is just an artifact >of the painting process. After squinting a numerous photos of F1 103/17, >I think the lighter rear fuselage is simply a combination of differences >in the angle of light reflection and the normal variations in the >intensity of the application of the 'streaked' camouflage. Maybe >two different painters did the fore and aft applications of the >camouflage and the 'aft' guy was just a little more frugal with paint? I thoroughly agree that the aft fuselage could be the result of a more frugal use of paint by one of the riggers. On the other hand, unless my copies of the photos were printed funny, it doesn't take much squinting to see the LIGHT tone of the aft fuselage. This is my comment, that this lighter tone made McCudden see the plane as Silver-Blue, whether Voss had been applying personallized markings or not. >The appearance of the white cross surround in the one photo you >mentioned is somewhat more problematic but after studying this >photo for some time, what I think we are seeing is nothing but -mud-! >Not only is the white area kinda funny looking but it is almost >impossible to distinguish the dividing line between the white and >the camouflage. And there appear to be large darkish hunks of >-something- scattered over both the white and camouflaged portions. >Given that Voss was reported to have made his first flight in the >Fokker F.1 on August 28, '17, "in spite of rain and high winds", >clearly there were some muddy periods while he was flying the >Fokker. The pattern observed seems perfectly consistant with >-mud- being kicked up on the fuselage by the landing gear. I would agree with the idea of mud spatter, though the only thing that bothers me is, *would you leave your plane mud spattered if you were being visited by royalty?* Of course, the day in the photos looks dreary, and the photo could have been taken after Voss had flown on a demo flight for the Crown Prince. To me, this is the fun part of modelling and research. Those who wave color chips at each other like they were bible verses miss the point -- we weren't there, the photos require some study, paints fade with time, and memories are suspect. Enjoy! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:42:36 -0400 From: MShan15048@aol.com To: wwi Subject: Re: Richthofen's Reds Message-ID: <960426124236_383428320@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-04-26 meba carefully writes: >Don't forget the wonderful book put out by Imrie. That's the "WONDERFUL RESOURCE" in the first sentence, Matt. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:25:38 -0400 From: SHUSTAD@email.usps.gov To: "(u)wwi" Subject: Re[2]: Richthofen's Reds Message-ID: <0033000001072130000002*@MHS> Let's not forget that the Sq./Sig. "Fokker triplanes in Action" book's center color profiles are also *ALL* wrong. But as Matt says, use it just for the photos by themselves. Steve H. (The Mad Norseman!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 26 Apr 96 at 11:52, MShan15048@aol.com typed diligantly: > This book is a wonderful resource, and I would add to it the much cheaper > Squadron/Signal "Fokker Triplanes in Action" as long as you are only looking > at THE PHOTOGRAPHS ALONE. Many of the photos are mislabelled as to their > subject, but some are not in the other publication. Don't forget the wonderful book put out by Imrie. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 11:35:47 PST From: stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu To: wwi Subject: Re[2]: *BAD* Eduard news! Message-ID: <9603268305.AA830543823@SCCCGATE.seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu> On 26 Apr 96 at 11:03, stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu typed diligantly: > Luckily I have one kit on my backlog for me to work on, so > I won't get too bored waiting for the Tripe. What, are you sick? Only *one* in your backlog? And you call yourself a modeler...;-) Did I say one kit in my backlog? I meant to say about 75. Must have been a typo.... actually, it was my sarcasm chip flipped into "full on" position. Have a great week-end all!! (or as the Brits say wee-kend) ----Stephen Tontoni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 14:42:48 EDT From: cv3@conted.swann.gatech.edu (Carlos Valdes) To: wwi Subject: RE: RE: Fwd: RIchthofen's Reds Message-ID: <199604261842.OAA27258@conted.swann.gatech.edu> Shane, Thanks very much for making the copy--I'll take care of its further distribution. I'm looking forward to getting a glimpse of some Aussie postage stamps. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 11:49:05 PST From: stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu To: wwi Subject: Not WWI stuff was (RE: Yo! Stepehen...) Message-ID: <9603268305.AA830544543@SCCCGATE.seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu> Howdy! Do you know if there are any good model-related things going on this weekend? Matthew Pardon the personal message -- I don't have Matthew's address in front of me and he apparently doesn't have mine either! Hey Matthew; don't know about anything special going on in the Seattle area this week-end. I do know that tomorrow is the last day of American Eagles at its location in beautiful downtown Ballard. So stuff will be on sale. Not really remarkable; right now everything there is 10% off except magazines. Maybe some stuff more than that. I will go today to sort of say good-bye to an era. I'll miss the store there. The new American Eagles will be in Lake City --- a little off the path for me (no car) --- so I won't be visiting as frequently as I did. The IPMS Seattle meetings at the Armory will not be so close to the store any more either, but I'll keep going to the meetings. See you around and stay out of trouble this week-end! Don't get caught anyway. -----Stephen Tontoni stonto@seaccc.sccd.ctc.edu tontoni@halcyon.com stonto@seaccd.sccd.ctc.edu (what does it say about a person when they have 3 e-mail addresses???????) ------------------------------ End of WWI Digest 108 *********************